Wehr weak penetration

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 18:44 PMVipper

That is rather inaccurate:
PzIV Penetration near 125 Penetration mid 115 Penetration far 110
Sherman Penetration near 140 Penetration mid 130 Penetration far 120
Cromwell Penetration near 135 Penetration mid 120 Penetration far 105
T-34/76 Penetration near 120 Penetration mid 100 Penetration far 80

(Things get even worse when it comes to penetration if one compares PzIV H to allied premiums.)

I most cases allied mediums have better penetration.

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 18:34 PMthedarkarmadillo

Wehr has great tools as well. The pak is great, stugs perform very well at their role, panthers are fantastic, p4 has more pen than other mediums. Brumbar is even reliable at dealing damage due to deflection damage. There are always Shreks too which are guaranteed to pen all allied core armour except comet/ church.

And my point about armour stands as well. Panther/p4/brumbar all get over 200 armour making them extremely durable against non hard counters. Hard counters are by definition very effective at their jobs

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:01 PMHannibal

My Sherman pen goes 140/120/100.
But apart from that, the raw pen value is pretty misleading. We should compare pen chances against a certain target, for example against other stock mediums.
OST P4 has ~70% pen chance against Sherman/Cromwell at range 20, it's 65% the other way around. The bigger the range, the better the P4s perform, at lower ranges P4 and Sherman/Cromwell become pretty much similar (all calculated with "my" penetration stats of Sherman).
This system sounds alright considering the slightly lower price for Sherman/Cromwell.

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:13 PMStug life

we are taking down the biased claim form darkarmadillo that p4 has more pen than other medium

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 14:59 PMmrgame2

Compare to Allies 60TD

FF: 260/240/210/Tulips/240 damages/0.55 moving accuracy
SU85: 240/230/220, vet to 312/299/286 with free self-spottting
Jackson: 260/240/220, vet to 338/312/286 and the best AP ammo 300/280/250 and vet 390/364/325. 0.75 moving accuracy!

They goes up against Brumar, Panther and Tiger..
Brumbar front/side armor 260, vet 338
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300

Hmmm

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:13 PMStug life

no we shouldnt we are not comparing medium tanks, we are taking down the biased claim form darkarmadillo that p4 has more pen than other medium

take in the context some time

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:22 PMSkysTheLimit

P4 has better far penetration than all 3 allied mediums, while also having better armor, and armor buff with vet. So it's pen chances against allied mediums are indeed better

Do you even have a point you're trying to argue here? You agree with OP that panther and pak need penetration buffs? Because that's the topic here, it's not whatever you decide is the topic....

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:01 PMHannibal

My Sherman pen goes 140/120/100.
...

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:01 PMHannibal

...
OST P4 has ~70% pen chance against Sherman/Cromwell at range 20, it's 65% the other way around. The bigger the range, the better the P4s perform, at lower ranges P4 and Sherman/Cromwell become pretty much similar (all calculated with "my" penetration stats of Sherman).
...

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 19:01 PMHannibal

...
We should compare pen chances against a certain target, for example against other stock mediums.
...

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 22:04 PMVipper

Finally the PzIV is nearly obsolete once allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear.

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 22:24 PMSkysTheLimit

How is this unique to Ost p4? Panther does the same thing to allied mediums, and its available stock to both axis factions

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost
2) Panther has little AI and can be countered by ATGs or TDs or even swarmed by mediums
3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2
4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds
5) Allied premium, heavies and super heavies can put fight vs a Panther (they might not be to 1v1 but they can damage it and fight when supported)
6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs
7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.

PzIV H for instance that is premium for Ostheer does not make allied mediums obsolete.

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs

Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PMVipper

7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 01:24 AMSkysTheLimit

Didn't miss your point at all. You said allied doctrinal tanks that were MUCH more expensive made p4 obselete (premiums, heavies, super heavies). I'm pointing out that both axis factions have stock tanks capable of doing the same

Why are you pointing out that the panther costs more and takes longer to tech to when you're comparing ost p4 performance to premiums, heavies, and super heavies? The same applies

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AMVipper

Now check the cost difference between a T-34/85 with a PzIV and a Sherman with a Panther. Actually if one's opponent is spamming allied mediums making Panther is not the best response, one would probably do better making stugs or PzIVs.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 04:36 AMMr. Someguy

Except the gap between a Panzer IV and a T-34-85 is much smaller than the gap between a Sherman and Panther. Heck, I think the the gap between the T-34-85 and Panther might be larger than the one between the Panzer IV and the T-34-85, after all the Panzer IV will consistently penetrate the T-34-85. Now add in an OKW Panzer IV and I think you're on about equal footing with a T-34-85, as the OKW Panzer IV's higher armor (234) will protect it more than the T-34-85's normal armor (160).