Axis armor bounce a little to often

Especially in team game which i play mostly 2v2 3v3 4v4. usually the best way to beat a tank is to go around to avoid armor. but when u cant becuz its protected by to much stuff you have to rely on frontal attacks. and thats usually always the case. Allies tanks always get penetrated like almost always. as axis i can literally dive with a panther and fight tanks while i hardly pay attention to them and go do other things and when i come back almost no dmg taken cuz i deflected a ton of shot. and axis tanks also have alot of hp. allies tanks and atguns have lower performance vs armor then axis tanks and atgun, while at the same time having less durability vs axis tanks and atguns making it so easy to lose tanks in a blink of an eye when playing as allies.but on the other side when playin as axis u dont feel threatened.

for example. sometimes itll take 10-12 shots just to kill a panther becuz its armor is deflecting.. your missing shots.... it has high hp...then theres op smoke and reverse. and blits

then with a su85 t76 jackson sherman or anything thats not a heavy will almost every single time no matter what get penetrated and before the fight its in your head already that u only can be in there for 2 at shots wherever its coming from becuz you know how easy they penetrate your tanks.
it dont seem very fair in team games where allies lose tanks so easy even having to worry about all the snare units axis have compared to allies.

ive always felt like there should be an armor bar on each tank. so whenever it gets hit by a shot and deflects, its armor bar will go down and eventually u wont be able to get any deflects until fully repaired. the bar is only for deflects. and tanks like the panther should have a higher armor/deflect bar then allies counterparts.
this is 1 way they can try to make the game more balanced for team games cuz i know in 1v1 this isnt as much an issue but still a tiny problem.

deflecting shouldnt be what players fall on for protection but attention to your units instead to keep them alive. situations like rng/bounces shouldnt call fights. instead attention heavy micro and skill

SU 85 will penetrate a panther 85% of the time at max range, where the panther can’t even shoot back

Axis vehicles are for the most part far less mobile than allied. While they might bounce a tiny bit more, they're also around longer and so get hit more.

The only exception *might* be the panther, but honestly it's just on par with an allied vehicle.

Use AT guns and tank destroyers screened by infantry if you're going to frontal assault, but preferably bait tanks in-front of AT guns like the real world doctrine.

Axis vehicles are for the most part far less mobile than allied.

What..?
Panther is one of the most mobile units in the game, all lights are comparable.
All non casemate medium vehicles have blitz or combat blitz, heavy tanks included and casemates are comparably mobile.

While they might bounce a tiny bit more, they're also around longer and so get hit more.

That's incorrect, actually, allied vehicles, namely shermans are larger and easier to hit(larger target size). Medium tanks have same target size and so do heavies.

What..?
Panther is one of the most mobile units in the game, all lights are comparable.
All non casemate medium vehicles have blitz or combat blitz, heavy tanks included and casemates are comparably mobile.


That's incorrect, actually, allied vehicles, namely shermans are larger and easier to hit(larger target size). Medium tanks have same target size and so do heavies.

Did you even read what I wrote? It's as if you only read the first sentence and went from there.

Did you even read what I wrote? It's as if you only read the first sentence and went from there.

You can see which part he was responding to as they are within quotation boxes.

i dont think axis armor is a big problem... the SU-85/FF/jackson pretty much demolish all axis armor except for doctrinal callins... the main issue i have atm are:

falls (which need to lose that damn faust)...
volks (which still outclass conscripts while having more utility)...
IRHT (4v4 cancer in 1 unit)...

and on the allied side...
T-34 ram (the 85 version needs to be changed/the 76 version needs a buff)...
maxim (utterly useless)...
penals (too strong earlygame)...

You can see which part he was responding to as they are within quotation boxes.

An alt account...?

I mentioned the panther in my post.

The other quote is referencing target size. Oh no an extra .06 percent chance for a direct hit. Exclusively to the Sherman as far as mediums go. The pershing has the smallest of the heavy target sizes. Imba! IIIIIIImmmmmmbbbbbbaaaaa!

Just yesterday i had a match where a comet bounced 2 or 3 shots in a row from my tiger! And my tiger got penetrated by every hit and i had to move him out after 3 seconds everytime. I don't feel like Axis tanks bounce more...

Just yesterday i had a match where a comet bounced 2 or 3 shots in a row from my tiger! And my tiger got penetrated by every hit and i had to move him out after 3 seconds everytime. I don't feel like Axis tanks bounce more...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a singular instance of bad RNG doesn't magically switch stats around.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a singular instance of bad RNG doesn't magically switch stats around.

the irony of this is palpable

i dont think axis armor is a big problem... the SU-85/FF/jackson pretty much demolish all axis armor except for doctrinal callins... the main issue i have atm are:

falls (which need to lose that damn faust)...
volks (which still outclass conscripts while having more utility)...
IRHT (4v4 cancer in 1 unit)...

and on the allied side...
T-34 ram (the 85 version needs to be changed/the 76 version needs a buff)...
maxim (utterly useless)...
penals (too strong earlygame)...

I feel like the IRHT is the most frustrating unit out of those to play against.

Should just show enemy units on the minimap with some sort of boost ability for munitions cost.

But I am derailing.


Anyway, at least in team games I feel like axis armour is in a very good place. The main issue is that most axis teams seem to consider spamming a blob of panthers into the enemy to be the height of late game strategy. But when they run into mines, at guns and TD destroyers they scream OP.

Out of the allied armour most of the units are pretty solid too atm.

I would like to see the T34/76 buffed (wouldn't care if there was a fuel cost increase) just to give the soviets a solid non-doc tank.

Comet is still having an identity crisis.

tbh, I would love to see the meta of Panthers vs allied td be replaced by a lengthier use of light vehicles and mediums. Although in 4v4 maps that would be hard to do.

An alt account...?

I mentioned the panther in my post.

The other quote is referencing target size. Oh no an extra .06 percent chance for a direct hit. Exclusively to the Sherman as far as mediums go. The pershing has the smallest of the heavy target sizes. Imba! IIIIIIImmmmmmbbbbbbaaaaa!

In the same way OP post is bad, the counter argument you brought is equally bad. Mobility and size are equivalent for similar vehicles categories.

Pershing been the smallest and most mobile has something to do with how it is priced and vet been equivalent of a heavy tank while having the smallest HP pool as well (same as Panther).

In the same way OP post is bad, the counter argument you brought is equally bad. Mobility and size are equivalent for similar vehicles categories.

Pershing been the smallest and most mobile has something to do with how it is priced and vet been equivalent of a heavy tank while having the smallest HP pool as well (same as Panther).

???

I agree that that the target sizes are similar for comparable vehicles(kaitof was claiming otherwise), but mobility is clearly not.

The p4s are slower and have less rotation than cromwells, shermans, and t34s.

The jagdpanzer is slower and has less rotation than the su-76 and so is the stug on https://coh2db.com/stats/. Not sure if it's been updated to new stug.

The tigers are slower and have less rotation than the IS-2, and Pershing. The regular tiger does have a better top speed than the churchill, but otherwise they are both less mobile than it.

The ISU has a higher top speed than the elephant, and has better everything compared to the jagdtiger.




The panther is the only exceptionally mobile tank on the axis side, and this is not even a true exception as the comet is faster in all but acceleration. Soviet and USF simply lack a comparable role tank.

...

Gonna use coh2db for values which i guess didn't change:

0.1 on speed and 0.1 on acceleration doesn't have a meaningful impact in how a vehicle compares with another (M4 vs PIV), rotation is equal to Cromwell (while this is the fastest of them which is fine cause is lacking in several other departments) and 76 is both slightly faster 0.2/0.2 and rotates better (32 vs 36). Luckily for the PIV, it has a more impactful vet 1 ability which let's it gains more mobility when needed (Cromwell requiring Hammer).

If that's not similar, well i guess they don't have similar armor values neither.

Su76 is between a Puma and a Stug, role wise (Anti light, soft anti medium). It's funny you mention the Su76 cause everyone knows it has one of the worst mobilities due to pathing.

Tiger is faster than IS2. You might have seen TA or KT, both of which are in a different category. KV2 is a low freaking tank as well and might be comparable to KT as it was made to be less and less reliant on artillery mode to be useful.
JT hasn't been updated. (3/1.2/16) so it's closer to the Ele (3.3/1.4/16). ISU (4.5/1.4/16).

If i may say something: the most important value to look at vehicles is acceleration >= rotation >>> speed. Most of the time, vehicles are not able to use their max speed unless running away through roads or during long straight chases. Rotation is what enables vehicles to maneuver and actually be able to roadkill models.

There are things which are equivalents and others which are "premium" or slightly above or below each category.
The // separation denotes a slight change in role/weight/cost/Vet requirement/etc.

Light: Stuart, Aec, // Valentine, Puma, Su76,
Medium TD: M10, Stug // JPIV, Su85, Jackson, FF
Medium: T3476, Cromwell, M4A3, PIV, M4C-76mm, // OKW PIV
Premium/Advanced Medium: E8, Bulldozer, T3485, Brummbear, Comet // Panther, KV1 // Pershing
Heavies: Tiger, IS2, TA, KV2 // Churchill // KT
Super heavies: ISU152, Ele, JT

Might have miss some vehicle (i didn't count Kv8, Scott, Centaur, Ostwind, etc. on purpose).

Gonna use coh2db for values which i guess didn't change:

0.1 on speed and 0.1 on acceleration doesn't have a meaningful impact in how a vehicle compares with another (M4 vs PIV), rotation is equal to Cromwell (while this is the fastest of them which is fine cause is lacking in several other departments) and 76 is both slightly faster 0.2/0.2 and rotates better (32 vs 36). Luckily for the PIV, it has a more impactful vet 1 ability which let's it gains more mobility when needed (Cromwell requiring Hammer).

If that's not similar, well i guess they don't have similar armor values neither.

Su76 is between a Puma and a Stug, role wise (Anti light, soft anti medium). It's funny you mention the Su76 cause everyone knows it has one of the worst mobilities due to pathing.

Tiger is faster than IS2. You might have seen TA or KT, both of which are in a different category. KV2 is a low freaking tank as well and might be comparable to KT as it was made to be less and less reliant on artillery mode to be useful.
JT hasn't been updated. (3/1.2/16) so it's closer to the Ele (3.3/1.4/16). ISU (4.5/1.4/16).

If i may say something: the most important value to look at vehicles is acceleration >= rotation >>> speed. Most of the time, vehicles are not able to use their max speed unless running away through roads or during long straight chases. Rotation is what enables vehicles to maneuver and actually be able to roadkill models.

There are things which are equivalents and others which are "premium" or slightly above or below each category.
The // separation denotes a slight change in role/weight/cost/Vet requirement/etc.

Light: Stuart, Aec, // Valentine, Puma, Su76,
Medium TD: M10, Stug // JPIV, Su85, Jackson, FF
Medium: T3476, Cromwell, M4A3, PIV, M4C-76mm, // OKW PIV
Premium/Advanced Medium: E8, Bulldozer, T3485, Brummbear, Comet // Panther, KV1 // Pershing
Heavies: Tiger, IS2, TA, KV2 // Churchill // KT
Super heavies: ISU152, Ele, JT

Might have miss some vehicle (i didn't count Kv8, Scott, Centaur, Ostwind, etc. on purpose).

So, as a rule, they are in fact faster. Even in your cherry picked closest comparison of unvetted m4 vs OST p4.

I'll admit I was wrong about the IS-2 being overall better than the tiger. I looked at the stats for the tiger ace assuming it would be faster than the normal one to save myself some time. IS-2 is marginally slower, but has significantly better rotation.

E: I confused SU-76 for SU-85. Even then comparison holds against the jagdpanzer. Stug is a bit more mobile; however, it's still a stug....

So, as a rule, they are in fact faster. Even in your cherry picked closest comparison of unvetted m4 vs OST p4.

I'll admit I was wrong about the IS-2 being overall better than the tiger. I looked at the stats for the tiger ace assuming it would be faster than the normal one to save myself some time. IS-2 is marginally slower, but has significantly better rotation.

E: I confused SU-76 for SU-85. Even then comparison holds against the jagdpanzer. Stug is a bit more mobile; however, it's still a stug....

There's no cherry picking. I specifically said: "Mobility is equivalent for similar vehicles".
When the values are so low and close to each other, you are not gonna notice the difference.

The only outlier in the whole category is the Cromwell at 7.0 (+0.7) / 2.6 (+0.5) which is the only thing it has going for it atm, while the rotation is equal to PIV. That's for sure a way to avoid crushing units with ease, when both of the vehicles with same rotations values can gain access to a heavy speed/acce buff.

There's no cherry picking. I specifically said: "Mobility is equivalent for similar vehicles".
When the values are so low and close to each other, you are not gonna notice the difference.

The only outlier in the whole category is the Cromwell at 7.0 (+0.7) / 2.6 (+0.5) which is the only thing it has going for it atm, while the rotation is equal to PIV. That's for sure a way to avoid crushing units with ease, when both of the vehicles with same rotations values can gain access to a heavy speed/acce buff.

But they are faster with the exception of blitz yes? I.e. if an axis tank can't blitz then it can't escape a pursuing counterpart, nor can it chase one down.

E: Since you want to claim the differences are so small so as to be meaningless, at what point would speed differences be meaningful? 10%? 20%? 30?

Troll-thread? Most Allii vehilces have average more or equial pen than german vehicles. lol

But they are faster with the exception of blitz yes? I.e. if an axis tank can't blitz then it can't escape a pursuing counterpart, nor can it chase one down.

E: Since you want to claim the differences are so small so as to be meaningless, at what point would speed differences be meaningful? 10%? 20%? 30?

To give you some perspective, on the test range, over 200m range (2 sniper diametre or basically from middle of the map) the difference in speed between a PIV, a M4A3 and a T3476 is less than 5/10m respectively. Tested 5 times with slight difference depending on small adjustment done at the start when the vehicles juggle a bit depending how perfectly i oriented and later gave the order (with a right click drag they keep formation pretty well). You start to notice a difference with the Cromwell. So i'll say that's the bare minimum for long ranges and values above that for short ranges.

5m is basically the lenght of the tank.

150m is around the distance between the exits from each base on Langres.

In any real game, top speed is not as important as it's hard to maintain that value constant. Acceleration and rotation are IMO more important values.