Pak howitzer after last patch

Hi,

some of us might have seen the video that tightrope made about a week ago about the new patch. He performed a basic test of Pak howie autofire vs afk volk squad. In the video, the squad got almost wiped after about 1m30s of continued autofire. Imho it's an RNG-cannon now.

I may be overreacting, but I wish recon support paratroopers would come without it.

Did you have a chance to use it in games or have it used against you? What are your observations?

Link to the video: https://youtu.be/ww_LlWDMkVI?t=1507

Not worth side-teching to get it now.

You can always use Airborne to get Paratroopers without the Bundle.

I haven’t watched the video but I have no doubt what you describe is what the pak howie now is. They increased its scatter a bunch instead of fixing its problematic AoE. Making it an RNG cannon is exactly what they wanted it to do. I was against this decision but I’m not on the balance team regardless.

Honestly I’d like to see a complete rework of the pack howitzer.

The US mortar is already fine and it’s only never used in its intended role as an auto fire and lift barrage weapon because it is outshined by the pack howitzer.

If you reworked the pack howitzer into basically a clone of the LefH howitzer with barrage only, but less damage and range than an immobile howitzer. Give the new version a set up ability that locks it in place and cannot fire it’s barrage unless it is set up. By this I mean that it should have a fairly long set up and tear down that takes several seconds and once it is set up it becomes just like other buildable howitzers, except a little weaker and with less range. This makes it much more like a howitzer and less like a “super mortar”. USF also lacks a regular howitzer and I think this is a way to help make the USF mortar, pack howitzer and Scott more different from each other.

Honestly I’d like to see a complete rework of the pack howitzer.

The US mortar is already fine and it’s only never used in its intended role as an auto fire and lift barrage weapon because it is outshined by the pack howitzer.

If you reworked the pack howitzer into basically a clone of the LefH howitzer with barrage only, but less damage and range than an immobile howitzer. Give the new version a set up ability that locks it in place and cannot fire it’s barrage unless it is set up. By this I mean that it should have a fairly long set up and tear down that takes several seconds and once it is set up it becomes just like other buildable howitzers, except a little weaker and with less range. This makes it much more like a howitzer and less like a “super mortar”. USF also lacks a regular howitzer and I think this is a way to help make the USF mortar, pack howitzer and Scott more different from each other.

Agree except for the part about the mortar - the mortar isn't used because the only thing it's adequate at is dispensing smoke and barraging buildings, and 240mp is usually a little steep for that at that point in the game. The AOE profile is simply too jank to be useful for dealing damage, even with the barrage, which is itself no more accurate or reliable than the autofire.

I'd welcome a change to the Howie that removes autofire if it also makes the barrages recharge quicker and the barrages themselves perhaps a bit more potent. Veterancy might also need a look into in that case.

Setup and teardown times could be increased - but if they are, I think the RA of the crew needs to be reduced from 1.25 to 1.00, like every other howitzer and the leig.

Agree except for the part about the mortar - the mortar isn't used because the only thing it's adequate at is dispensing smoke and barraging buildings, and 240mp is usually a little steep for that at that point in the game. The AOE profile is simply too jank to be useful for dealing damage, even with the barrage, which is itself no more accurate or reliable than the autofire.

I just checked the stats on the USF vs the WM mortar. The WM mortar is a bit better. I thought they were the same though. Maybe the stats are out of date.

Either way, if you heavily change the functionality of the pack howitzer then I agree that the mortar should be buffer slightly to compensate. You could just make it a clone of the WM mortar. Of all the units that can be mirrored of each other the regular mortars are the ones that make the most sense to do so. I’d still give them different vet 1 abilities, but I don’t see any other reason that mortars shouldn’t all have the same stats on auto fire and barrage. Soviets can still have six man crews though, it’s not that much of an advantage in most games and can make you bleed more manpower in mortar vs mortar fights anyways.

I've got no idea why they don't want to redesign unit in light howi version of land mattress - barrage only, no autofire, balance fucking barrage so the unit is in between mortars and actual howis in terms of lethality.

Soft removing problematic units and abilities from them game by making you want to pull your teeth out out of frustration after using them should never be an option and yet, here we are, previously with maxim and demos, now with this.

Idk how scatter was the route they decided to take instead of AOE. Not a good way to balance it at all

some of us might have seen the video that tightrope made about a week ago about the new patch. He performed a basic test of Pak howie autofire vs afk volk squad. In the video, the squad got almost wiped after about 1m30s of continued autofire. Imho it's an RNG-cannon now.

Link to the video: https://youtu.be/ww_LlWDMkVI?t=1507

Can people please stop drawing conclusions based on one single test. Some things in the game, like scatter, are very dependent on RNG and results can vary wildly. One test does not prove anything. It is very, very globally indicative at best. For all we know it might as well be the worst RNG roll and give the completely wrong picture (like with that KV-1 hull down test).

To draw a proper conclusion, the number of tests would have to be at least 50-100 to get a decent sample size. Or preferably a lot of experience using them ingame (because of realistic scenarios).

Can people please stop drawing conclusions based on one single test. Some things in the game, like scatter, are very dependent on RNG and results can vary wildly. One test does not prove anything. It is very, very globally indicative at best. For all we know it might as well be the worst RNG roll and give the completely wrong picture (like with that KV-1 hull down test).

To draw a proper conclusion, the number of tests would have to be at least 50-100 to get a decent sample size. Or preferably a lot of experience using them ingame.

This is why I asked people about their Pak experience after the patch. In my opinion the Pak howie change of increased scatter just increased RNG which is a bad approach, this combined with 20% damage reduction on vet3 grens makes pak howie an unreliable and expensive investment for 340 MP or whatever it costs.

This is why I asked people about their Pak experience after the patch. In my opinion the Pak howie change of increased scatter just increased RNG which is a bad approach, this combined with 20% damage reduction on vet3 grens makes pak howie an unreliable and expensive investment for 340 MP or whatever it costs.

I've tried it a few times since the patch. I had one that had a lot of good luck and got to vet 3 with 21 kills in a 4v4. Most of the time it did next to nothing. It still gets wiped easily (a problem that I don't have with LEIG's) but now doesn't do much even when it is up. I did have a MG42 almost get wiped by a Pack Howie. It only got hit because I was repositioning it. Had I left in in place the Pack howie would've missed comfortably.

If they made it an exact copy of the LEIG it would be a significant buff at this point. I've had double LEIG get close to 60 kills. Those work really well with the newly improved Falls.

I don't understand the mentality behind some of the decisions that are made. Somehow, the USF mortar needs to be worse than the OST mortar, while having about the same cost and pop cap. The justification is that OST needs to be stationary, implying that somehow USF never needs cover or to be stationary. It's okay that the OST mortar and the LEIG hard counter the USF mortar but not okay that the Pack Howie could counter them.

Can people please stop drawing conclusions based on one single test. Some things in the game, like scatter, are very dependent on RNG and results can vary wildly

That's literally the argument about why increasing it's scatter wasn't a good idea. It's too much RNG

Can people please stop drawing conclusions based on one single test. Some things in the game, like scatter, are very dependent on RNG and results can vary wildly. One test does not prove anything. It is very, very globally indicative at best. For all we know it might as well be the worst RNG roll and give the completely wrong picture (like with that KV-1 hull down test).

To draw a proper conclusion, the number of tests would have to be at least 50-100 to get a decent sample size. Or preferably a lot of experience using them ingame (because of realistic scenarios).

It hasn't worked well in two of the three times I've tried it. The likelihood of me, or anyone else, trying it another 47 times to meet your minimum criterion is nil. It's around 380 mp/20 fuel to get the first one, which is a too much of a gamble..

If the balance team was going to nerf it, they should have buffed the USF mortar so that it is competitive with the Ost mortar, then turned the Pack howie into a howie (don't nerf scatter, make the barrage more like six shells, take out direct fire). USF didn't need two units that overlapped, it needed two units with defined roles that could actually do their defined roles.

That's literally the argument about why increasing it's scatter wasn't a good idea. It's too much RNG

Well, it was the point to make the autofire noticeably worse to make it rely more on the barrage. Whether or not it's too bad now remains to be seen, that isn't something you can conclude in 3 matches or one test video.

Well, it was the point to make the autofire noticeably worse to make it rely more on the barrage.

Yeah I agree with that goal but you can do that without increasing scatter. AOE rework wouldve kept it more consistent IMO

Had an opponent use the Pack howie in a match on Rails and Metal today. In 14 minutes, it got 8 kills and was Vet 2. The 8 kills cost me about 208mp. He got his as part of a air-dropped combat group so it cost him 125 to crew it, plus 80(?) munitions and 168 in upkeep (roughly). It did force several retreats. Seemed like it missed stationary targets about 30-40 % of the time, did a little damage about the same percentage, and hit hard once in awhile.

It might have looked better had the match went longer but during the time he had it, it seemed like he would have been much better off with a cheaper .50 cal. I didn't have a lot of weapon teams so he mostly had infantry to shoot.

One of the thing worth noting about the pack howizter is the high damage it does to ambient building. It most case it will destroy a wooden house in one barrage if it is not full health.

The damage to ambient building needs to be looked at.