allow 7 man Conscripts PPSH41 or PTRS

I feel that even with the recent changes the Conscripts are not up to snuff. Especially in commanders without elite infantry where Conscripts get upgrades. These upgrades come with much downsides and the lack of elite infantry makes that these doctrines have a difficult late game. Especially if they are not allowed together with the 7th man upgrade. Let me try to summarize what I mean.

PPSH41 Conscripts:
+CQC fire power
+hit the dirt
-higher reinforce cost
-higher losses due to need to close in compared to 7th man upgrade
-Faster squad wipes due too lower squad numbers compared to 7th man upgrade
-no dps bonus that lets it trade at later fase in the game

PTRS

+anti tank fire power
+camouflage
+armor tracking
-loss anti infantry fire power (basically a 3 man conscript squad)
-no dps bonus that lets it trade at later fase in the game
-Faster squad wipes due too lower squad numbers compared to 7th man upgrade

I think that allowing both upgrades at the same time will fix the lack of elite infantry in certain doctrines. It will also fix Conscript late game viability in Conscript focused commander and fix the situational nature of the PPSH41 and PTRS upgrades compared to all the other mainline weapon upgrades that don't take up a whole slot in there respective commanders. It also will be balanced out by the high muni investment per squad. 120 for PPSH41 7 man squad and 135 for PTRS 7 man squad in total. This could be more if someone decides to unlock it a tier 3.

Conscripts do not need a buff it is the other infatry that need nerfs.

Conscripts do not need a buff it is the other infatry that need nerfs.

This still wont change the fact that commanders that rely on Conscripts and Conscript upgrades instead of elite infantry struggle greatly late game because once your vetted conscript squad dies you are going to have a problem fielding any significant infantry.

This problem is unique for the cons since for example the MP40 Volksgrenadiers (closed unit to ppsh cons) scale way better into late game due to their better veterancy and more consistent dps curve.

Another way to bring the PPSh41 upgrade into line with the other assault packages for line infantry is to give PPSH41's but tone down the performance of each gun to m3 grease gun mp40 levels. Again, for the more consistent dps curve. Also the CP's need to be lower and similar to mp40 and sten upgrade at 0CP.

7 man conscripts + oorah + ppsh + incover bonuses that could stack with "hit the dirt!" + cheaper reinforce of the 7 man upgrade.

I think i'll take a hard pass on that one.

This still wont change the fact that commanders that rely on Conscripts and Conscript upgrades instead of elite infantry struggle greatly late game because once your vetted conscript squad dies you are going to have a problem fielding any significant infantry.

This problem is unique for the cons since for example the MP40 Volksgrenadiers (closed unit to ppsh cons) scale way better into late game due to their better veterancy and more consistent dps curve.

Actually Cons scale better than Volks, they have better combat bonuses and PPsh conscripts are better than MP40 VG.

Another way to bring the PPSh41 upgrade into line with the other assault packages for line infantry is to give PPSH41's but tone down the performance of each gun to m3 grease gun mp40 levels. Again, for the more consistent dps curve. Also the CP's need to be lower and similar to mp40 and sten upgrade at 0CP.

Imo they should all get PPsh but that would actually be nerf to PPsh conscripts since they would have little DPS in mid range and their DPS drop off would be higher when losing entities...

7 man conscripts + oorah + ppsh + incover bonuses that could stack with "hit the dirt!" + cheaper reinforce of the 7 man upgrade.

I think i'll take a hard pass on that one.

Alright then how would you propose to make PPSH41 more viable, not a semi waste of a commander slot and fix
the soviet infantry lategame without elites?

Alright then how would you propose to make PPSH41 more viable, not a semi waste of a commander slot and fix
the soviet infantry lategame without elites?

Quite simply by starting nerfing units instead of this constant buffing staring with St44 VG and the flame grenade.

Actually Cons scale better than Volks, they have better combat bonuses and PPsh conscripts are better than MP40 VG.

Imo they should all get PPsh but that would actually be nerf to PPsh conscripts since they would have little DPS in mid range and their DPS drop off would be higher when losing entities...

If the data supports that then that is fact but to me it feels like my PPSH cons always die mid to late game while my MP40 volks survive till the end of the match. Even if they don't the fact that they can get replaced by obers means that you can replace them with decent infantry that doesn't need to spend time vetting and upgrading (at a high cost I know). Unless you are playing with guards or shocks (lets face it, you are) you will be sit out of luck in the infantry department doubly so because PPSH cons die practically 2x as fast as the PPSH ones.


Id say give them similarly dps curves as un upgraded assault sections and cavalry rifle men.

Alright then how would you propose to make PPSH41 more viable, not a semi waste of a commander slot and fix
the soviet infantry lategame without elites?

I'm pretty sure cons are already viable... shocks and guards are both really strong too so I'm not really sure why this needs changing? Yeah con PTRS may not be the best doctrine in the world because it lacks heavy AI power of other docs, but that kinda just makes the doc shit.

Cons with ppsh41 already very fearsome with oorah and veterancy. They're just not the new shock troops which can tackle most if not all axis infantry.

7 man conscripts + oorah + ppsh + incover bonuses that could stack with "hit the dirt!" + cheaper reinforce of the 7 man upgrade.

I think i'll take a hard pass on that one.

Yeah, that does sound a bit too strong, but I don’t think the original idea is impossible to implement with some changes.

I’d be in favor of reducing the combat bonuses given to the 7 man upgrade in favor of them still having one weapon slot and the ability to get doctrinal upgrades.

However, this would require large changes to how the 7 man upgrade is implemented. I suggest the following:

-7 man upgrade comes only after tier 3 or 4 is built. No extra cost to unlock at tier 3 or tier 4.

-7 man upgrade only grants the squad the extra man (Conscript Sergeant) and the reduced reinforcement cost.

-7 man upgrade no longer grants better combat performance in cover.

-7 man upgrade doesn’t take up a weapon slot or remove the ability to upgrade with PPShs, PTRSs or SVTs.

These changes would make 7 man Conscripts a little easier to get earlier, but makes them a little less powerful too. Since they are now less powerful they can be combined with other upgrades without making the “7 man plus doctrinal weapon” combo op.

I'm pretty sure cons are already viable... shocks and guards are both really strong too so I'm not really sure why this needs changing? Yeah con PTRS may not be the best doctrine in the world because it lacks heavy AI power of other docs, but that kinda just makes the doc shit.

Cons with ppsh41 already very fearsome with oorah and veterancy. They're just not the new shock troops which can tackle most if not all axis infantry.

I think they are a clear long term downgrade compaired to the 7th man upgrade in doctrines where you dont get shock or Guards. It has it's own ability slot in commanders and it's worse then a late game upgrade. Is that a waste or what?

Buffing the 7-man upgrade is the wrong idea completely. The PPSH Conscripts just need to be buffed by themselves since the package is mostly garbage at the moment.

Buffing the 7-man upgrade is the wrong idea completely. The PPSH Conscripts just need to be buffed by themselves since the package is mostly garbage at the moment.

Is it?

Ppsh41 were the only thing made con builds viable before the 7 man upgrade and they have been buffed via cp requirements. The powerful Conscript veterancy bonuses means any type of anti infantry weapon upgrade is a massive benefit, and non doc oorah has always synergized well with ppsh. The vet 2 molotov animation speed increase also synergize quite well now.


Beyond that hit the dirt is very decent especially with 7 man cons, and probably worth half an ability slot by itself.



I fully disagree with OP about adding additional weapons to 7man cons.

"green with g 43 and LMG are ultra OP they need a nerf"

"cons with 7 men and ppsh are a perfectly balanced combination"

"green with g 43 and LMG are ultra OP they need a nerf"

"cons with 7 men and ppsh are a perfectly balanced combination"

Yeah, this had occurred to me as well. To be honest, the 7 man upgrade is an arguably stronger upgrade than the lmg42 as well due to all the extra utility benefits it gives beyond just the additional man.

Yeah, this had occurred to me as well. To be honest, the 7 man upgrade is an arguably stronger upgrade than the lmg42 as well due to all the extra utility benefits it gives beyond just the additional man.

yes it is, in the preview the CD reduction was 50% and they beat LMG green in cover at long range almost every time

they lowered to 30% so at long range green with LMG beat them most of the times

snip

PPSH cons are okay. You'd never get a significant number of people to agree to give them 7 models. I play a lot of Soviets and wouldn't give them Mobilize Reserves.

I would give PTRS cons the Mobilize Reserves upgrades. Their AI is terrible so you don't have to worry about them beating any other infantry, possibly excluding Pioneers, and they often have to leave cover to shoot at vehicles anyway so they wouldn't get the cooldown bonus on the few rifles they have. PTRS cons get wiped often so the 7th model would help them survive a bit better. This would only affect Tank Hunters which is a bit of a meme currently. I'd also allow 7-man con squads to pick up PTRS's, assuming that they get the gimped version anyway.

Alright then how would you propose to make PPSH41 more viable, not a semi waste of a commander slot and fix
the soviet infantry lategame without elites?

You move it to the timing of other SMG upgrades.

Aful idea to allow stacking the upgrades. The durability buff alone would make the upgrades much more effective let alone the other bonuses mo-res gives.

You move it to the timing of other SMG upgrades.

Like?