UKF September patch discussion

Jump back to quoted post30 Aug 2019, 20:29 PMGrumpy

It (the AT gun) didn't fit people's narrative so was conveniently left out. (comments not directed at balance team)

At 19 pop cap, 2 Churchills and 2 RE's to repair them eat up 52 pop. Contrary to popular belief, that still leaves you with no reliable anti-tank. Add in a vickers, a Firefly, and two sections and then you're going to have to choose between another piece of AT, indirect, or another section.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 08:41 AMmrgame2

I still say 120 damage

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 10:09 AMSander93

I mean, you can say that as many times as you want, but I've already explained to you how much of an overnerf that would be (taking penetration and accuracy into account), and I can guarantee it will never happen.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 10:18 AMKatitof

Now if only panther could get similar pop cap treatment so that spam is dealt with as well, so its possible to use something else then TD in late game for allies.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 10:45 AMmrgame2

No i disagree. Your calculation only show over nerf if head to head with a panther.

With the Churchill's poor penetration alone (105 far pen), disregarding accuracy, that would mean on average:
vs P4 is 1 / (105 / 180 = 0.58) = 1.7 shots extra
vs P4J is 1 / (105 / 234 = 0.45) = 2.2 shots extra
vs Panther is 2 / (105 / 260 = 0.4) = 5 shots extra

With far accuracy at 0.025 (55-60% chance to hit a P4 or Panther) you could probably add another shot to each of those, but I won't include it because it's impossible to calculate the true accuracy with scatter based misses becoming hits.

Jump back to quoted post29 Aug 2019, 16:26 PMmrgame2

The rng i played against churchills has always been more effective than it should at inflicting AT damage.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:05 PMStug life

but panther already has high pop cap ?

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:20 PMKatitof

If that one more pop cap point helps with churchill, it'll also help with panthers, which are equal problem, especially in team games now that ost T4 is easily affordable.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMStug life

but aren't specialized tank supposed to be more pop efficient than generalist ones ? panther has a td main gun, Churchill as a medium tank main gun

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:28 PMKatitof

That didn't stopped allied TDs from getting pop cap increase when they were spammed too much.
I can't see why panther would be immune to it.
Allied TD meta comes directly from panthers being spammed as allied meds can't stand up to them.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:33 PMStug life

but they do have less pop cap than panther right ? and less than what they are supposed to counter (heavy tanks)? panther is supposed to counter Churchill and other heavy tank, it makes sense to have less pop than them, same as allied TD that have lower pop than heavy and panther

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:41 PMKatitof

Actually, panther is about the worst unit you could get to counter churchill.
You need volume of fire against damage sponge units, not reliability of penetration, armor isn't the problem, health pool is and while panter will certainly counter churchill, it'll be much less efficient then a pair of stugs.
Allied TDs also have significantly lower health, armor and have no AI capabilities, in contrast panther doesn't really pay much more fuel for double the armor, 50% more health and AI MGs.

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 12:48 PMStug life

btw u forgot the -10 range

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 13:02 PMKatitof

Not really, just thought it does have more then enough to compensate for that - like having actual turret rotation, or actual turret or not having to use 100 munit each time it needs to do its job fine

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 10:19 AMSander93

Because making changes to "secondary" unit stats (like cooldowns, build time, abilities etc.) has proven to be a very good tool to balance units by adjusting their availability or timing, without having to nerf their performance. One major advantage with this is that it allows for units to remain strong to keep them attractive to use, but helps prevent them from being deployed in quick succession and/or in overwhelming numbers.

In the last 2 patches units like Pathfinders, Assault Grenadiers, Valentine and Jaeger Light Infantry all triggered a vast amount of complaints after their initial timings or performance changes about overperformance, and ultimately they have been fixed without touching their performance at all just by limiting their availability (I have barely ever seen any complaints about those units since the follow-up patches). These small changes are usually way more effective than people initially think.

As for the Churchill specifically, I personally do not believe a single Churchill is overperforming (except that grenade ability they had at vet 0), and that the unit is only really problematic when deployed in overwhelming numbers (~3 at once). So from my point of view, there is no reason to overly punish players using 1 or max 2 Churchills in a diverse build by nerfing the unit's primary performance.

So for now, availability will be more limited to see if that alone works, and if ultimately it doesn't work, performance can always still be nerfed later. But the first option is preferred.

Jump back to quoted post30 Aug 2019, 21:32 PMStug life

dear mod team fix land matress

i believe the nerf hammer was too hard on the poor thing (land mattres), the damage it does is similar to the katushya but has lower mid range damage and has a 0.5 reduce damage vs heavy cover, it's the only one to have it (all other have 1), but the bigger problem is the targeting circle, it's to big and it does not actually show where the rocket are gonna hit, the problem I believe is the distance ratio of a whopping 0.6 (all other have rocket art have 0.16) and the scatter angle of 15

To fix the unit I believe normalizing the ratio is the first step (if not 0.16 at least 0.2-0.3), then changing the angle to 12-13 would make it more consistent
maybe normalizing the cover damage to 1 too ? Or maybe 0.75 as is the only team weapon art (so no easy puma hunt)?

Here some img for what I mean the targeting circle doesn't actually show where the rocket hit, 1 at max range 1 at minimum (bigger than my resolution)

the blue dot is where I clicked, the red lines are the circle edge, u can see its worth jack shit as indication, in green I made the circle(?) of what the actual targeting circle should actually look like, so around half of what it shows
and yes I have a paint master degree thank you

here something vipper made so u can even better understand what I mean

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 13:18 PMStug life

exactly see we agree

btw tulips are now a draw back ? i mean let's nerf stug by giving them tulips

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 13:24 PMKatitof

But that would require it to shoot once every fool moon, like ff does!

Jump back to quoted post31 Aug 2019, 13:21 PMmadin2

The reload time is also way to high compared to other artillery units