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German sniper survivability

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Nullist
24 Oct 2013, 12:15 PM
#41
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 12:11 PMIpKaiFung


That's totally wrong.

1 armour means when a hit is rolled from small arms that hit will deal damage every time

2 armour means when a hit is rolled from small arms that hit will deal damage 50% of the time.

The penetration of all small arms weapons is 1, to work out the percentage penetration chance its the penetration of the weapon divided by the armour x 100

currently armour is modeled in the spreadsheets as effectively increasing infantry HP.


Thank you for the correction.
So does that mean 2 armor effectively doubles the hp of the model as he stated?
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IpKaiFung
24 Oct 2013, 12:24 PM
#42
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sort of, it's much more powerful than a hp boost imo.
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Nullist
24 Oct 2013, 12:53 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 12:24 PMIpKaiFung
sort of, it's much more powerful than a hp boost imo.


What do you mean "sort of".

He claimed a Sniper model with 80hp and 2 Armor would have effectively 160hp.
Is that so, or not?
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Sarantini
24 Oct 2013, 13:01 PM
#44
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Because armor doesn't protect against anything other than small arms fire.
80 hp and 2 armor means he has 160hp against small arms but just 80 against explosive weapons.
I also find 40hp and 2 armor the biggest diceroll ever at close range. Ive killed a sniper in .1 sec with 2 lucky hits from an engineer squad while at other times a full sized conscript squad has trouble with it.
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Nullist
24 Oct 2013, 13:13 PM
#45
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 13:01 PMSarantini
Because armor doesn't protect against anything other than small arms fire.
80 hp and 2 armor means he has 160hp against small arms.


So 2 armor doubles the effective hps vs small arms?
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IpKaiFung
24 Oct 2013, 13:29 PM
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it can be modeled that way but there's an element of randomness to it that I wouldn't consider it a doubling of HP for example you could land 10 hits in a row and there's a chance that none of them deal damage or on the flip side the first 3 hits deal damage and the sniper dies.
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Nullist
24 Oct 2013, 13:39 PM
#47
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 13:29 PMIpKaiFung
it can be modeled that way but there's an element of randomness to it that I wouldn't consider it a doubling of HP for example you could land 10 hits in a row and there's a chance that none of them deal damage or on the flip side the first 3 hits deal damage and the sniper dies.


Alright. So he was wrong as well then. Fair enough.
Just wondered why you didn't correct him as well, is all.
Seemed to be rather selective.
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link0
24 Oct 2013, 17:59 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 12:05 PMNullist


Why are you doubling the hitpoints from 2 armor.
1 Armor is a 10% chance of deflect. 2 Armor is a 20% chance of deflect.

I repeat:
At 2x40hp and 2x1 armor, Sov Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 2x10% armor roll.
At 1x80hp and 1x1 armor, Ost Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 1x10% armor roll.


LOL, what? Armor and penetration are some of the very basic mechanics of this game. I'm surprised that you of all people didn't understand this mechanic.


Small arms all have a penetration of 1 (except incendiary rounds on the HMG). Armor of 2 gives 2x the effective HP. Of course, since armor is based on RNG rolls, effective HP is not exactly the same as actual HP.



As an aside, I've read that armor does help with explosives near the edge of the AOE, as they have lower penetration values there. It would be awesome if someone can confirm if this is true or not.
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OZtheWiZARD
24 Oct 2013, 22:33 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 13:39 PMNullist


Alright. So he was wrong as well then. Fair enough.
Just wondered why you didn't correct him as well, is all.
Seemed to be rather selective.



I wasn't wrong. I used simplified formula to show my point.
RNG is a part of CoH and every skirmish, every shoot will be affected by it. Unfortunately it is not that simple to incorporate this to any damage related equation as mathematics is bit more advanced.
It would be much simpler if 2 armour would equal 50% less damage, but that's not the case.
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HorseloverFat
25 Oct 2013, 01:50 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 13:39 PMNullist
Alright. So he was wrong as well then. Fair enough.
Just wondered why you didn't correct him as well, is all.
Seemed to be rather selective.


Look, I know I'm new here, but this, Nullist, is why peeople get their backs up. Don't take it personally.


jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 22:33 PMOZtheWiZARD
I wasn't wrong. I used simplified formula to show my point.

...and Oz, you WERE wrong, by way of oversimplification.

All of y'all quit trying to prove you're right all the frickin' time, smoke some blunts, maybe do the dishes or something. Dammit.
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akula
25 Oct 2013, 03:44 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 05:03 AMJohanSchwarz


I believe in another thread it was stated that Zis, Pak, and Su-85 have a 10% chance of sniping an infantry model.


I wish it were 5% or less
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link0
25 Oct 2013, 04:54 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2013, 03:44 AMakula


I wish it were 5% or less


I believe it's around 5.5% at close range and 2.55% at long range for a direct hit. I might be a bit off. However, they do have a bit of an AOE, it is also possible to get hit by a scatter.
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OZtheWiZARD
25 Oct 2013, 09:24 AM
#53
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jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2013, 01:50 AMHorseloverFat


...and Oz, you WERE wrong, by way of oversimplification.

All of y'all quit trying to prove you're right all the frickin' time, smoke some blunts, maybe do the dishes or something. Dammit.


That goes for every CoH damage formula ever presented.
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Lichtbringer
25 Oct 2013, 10:53 AM
#54
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jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2013, 13:39 PMNullist


Alright. So he was wrong as well then. Fair enough.
Just wondered why you didn't correct him as well, is all.
Seemed to be rather selective.


You got the very basics of Armor calculation wrong, and that with a very big impact on your argumentation. 10% more survivable or 100% is a reeaaaally big diffrence.
Btw, what did you think do the 1,5 armor of a grenadier? If that waas the case Grenadiers would always lose against cons.

He on the other hand was almost correct. No one mentiones in every calculation that a conscript could hit every shot with his low accuracy. But it is possible. For the Sniper it is something to consider, but not a huge deal like your armor calculation...

And if the change would be 80 hp and 1 Armor, that would also fix this problem.

Ontopic:
Like I said since a long time: 80 Hp 1 Armor. That way he has the same effective HP against Smallarms, less randomness, and a explosive survivabillity that comes near to a 2 man Squad.

@StephennJF But isn't that the same for the Sovietsnipers? Normally soviets have more indirectfire(at-gun with T2) / infantrykillervehicles (T70) at their hand.

I play mostly 1v1 and my post are with 1v1 in mind.
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Nullist
25 Oct 2013, 12:33 PM
#55
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Anyone else want to repeat and point out for the upteenth time that I got something wrong?

Jesus christ... Give it a rest.
I already admitted it and thanked for the correction.

When youve posted 1600 posts with every single thing correct, by all means, come at me.
(Inb4 some jackass claims Im responsible for 1600 posts of pure shit)

Ontopic:

In light of the correct armor effect, I agree with reducing it from 2 in conjunction with a hp raise. Its largely arbitrary anyways, since a Sniper should be nowhere near small arms fire in the first place.
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c r u C e
26 Oct 2013, 12:36 PM
#56
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Is this a joke??
The German version of Predator getting armor or hp buffed? :))
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JohanSchwarz
26 Oct 2013, 16:57 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 12:36 PMc r u C e
Is this a joke??
The German version of Predator getting armor or hp buffed? :))


It's not a buff, it's a tweak. Less armour for more HP. Calm the fuck down.
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c r u C e
26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 16:57 PMJohanSchwarz


It's not a buff, it's a tweak. Less armour for more HP. Calm the fuck down.


1.I am calm
2.I see no reason why it should have it's health "tweaked",the Sniper guy doesn't want to die to small arms fire already
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Omega_Warrior
26 Oct 2013, 19:15 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PMc r u C e


1.I am calm
2.I see no reason why it should have it's health "tweaked",the Sniper guy doesn't want to die to small arms fire already

And this wouldn't change that. It would only help in the case of AOE damage. And only slightly as a direct hit from most things would still kill it.
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Madok
26 Oct 2013, 20:35 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PMc r u C e
1.I am calm
2.I see no reason why it should have it's health "tweaked",the Sniper guy doesn't want to die to small arms fire already

Oh, he dies to rifles all right.
It's annoying if a sniper escapes a good flank. But you got to admit that in terms of pure small arms fire: Both sniper units have about the same survivability.



Personally I disliked the sniper centric play of CoH1. Intensely disliked it.
I was thrilled with the first tidbits that snipers would now only be able to cloak in cover.

However right now we have one faction with a frail but ever so slightly more efficient sniper and the other faction with a far more resilient sniper unit.
On top of the natural counter sniping risk to the OST sniper the abilities (natural and vet) of other SU units pose very real threats to the OST sniper (already covered in this tread).

All of this might not be an issue if you are a top player and have honed your sniper micro skills in countless hours of vCoH...

For most mediocre players this is a problem.
I like the current asymmetry but a slight buff towards AOE durability could be a way to make the OST sniper more appealing to non pro players.
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