Jackson - jast light version of the Panther :)

but why ? u have also Paks and mines and u can equip all inf with zooks and offmap if u want too.
maybe u just have to develop a combiend arms tactic.
And not the standart infs spam into Jacksons ...where 0 micro is required.

in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant.

U see only panthers in axis lategame because it is the only stock Tank that is not useless when it hits the field.

That is, the axis player can play with heavy tanks, and the USF player must defend with mines and a paks with the worst penetration? It also requires munition costs to increase penetration. Yes, you want an easy game too.

"in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant" - lie.

in 2v2 u just NEVER see an Elefant.

lol wat?

Jaeger Armor is the high level meta doctrine.

but why ? u have also Paks and mines and u can equip all inf with zooks and offmap if u want too.
maybe u just have to develop a combiend arms tactic.
And not the standart infs spam into Jacksons ...where 0 micro is required.

in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant.

U see only panthers in axis lategame because it is the only stock Tank that is not useless when it hits the field.

What game are you playing where zooks are effective versus heavy tanks? These aren't Panzershreks we're talking about; bazookas struggle even against Panzer IVs.

Off-map? P-47 Rocket Strafe is good, but you're not going to be able to build an AT defense around it.

Mines? USF only has stock access to the RE M7 light mine; 80 damage and a quick stun. There's the heavy M6 mine, but it's 60 munitions each and only produceable by the M20. Your opponent is going to know what you're doing if he sees one pop up 20 minutes into a game lmao.

This leaves an AT gun wall as the only option other than the Jackson, and once youve dumped the ~810 manpower and ~21 popcap required to make that tactic work it's probably time already for them to get fucked by rocket artillery, obers or stormtroopers. Allied ATGs dont get TWP either so you'll have to be playing against someone ballsy or retarded enough to get satchel charged or already eat enough damage for an infantry snare to work if you want to kill anything without blitzing away first.

If the Pack Howitzer was so much to bitch about on the basis of it's uniqueness, you really have to wonder why the Panther gets a free pass. Your Panzer IVs and Stug AGs wouldnt be useless if Allies actually produced medium tanks instead of the Jackson/TDs, but its already been established that this is what you have to do in order to stop axis heavy armor, which Axis in return have plenty of capability to stall towards, having no such difficulties with stock allied armor aside from maybe the Churchill.

Not everyone has teller mines or shreks, man.

Nerf Panther and buff jackson.

Add penetration so it doesnt need to flank heavy tank destroyers. Maybe add a HE shell too because its AI is so bad compared too stug/panthers MGs

60 sightrange would be good too. Afterall its an open top vehicle

Nerf Panther and buff jackson.

Add penetration so it doesnt need to flank heavy tank destroyers. Maybe add a HE shell too because its AI is so bad compared too stug/panthers MGs

60 sightrange would be good too. Afterall its an open top vehicle

Who asked the nerf panther here?

This is an inevitable consequence of the armour system.

So long as medium armor is hard countered by heavy armour (including the Panther here), players are going to build heavy tanks and tank destroyers instead.

Even if you do nerf the Jackson, USF is still going to build them because what other options are there? AT guns and handheld are balanced against mediums, not heavies.

If you want medium tanks in team game modes, you need to make medium tanks viable in those modes.

This is one way to do it: https://www.coh2.org/topic/93799/tank-point-blank
There are many others.

That is, the axis player can play with heavy tanks, and the USF player must defend with mines and a paks with the worst penetration? It also requires munition costs to increase penetration. Yes, you want an easy game too.

"in 1v1 and 2v2 u just NEVER see a JT or an Elefant" - lie.

maybe u just play axis if u want heavy tanks(wich get countered even before theyre hit the field). . i cant do anything about the US Tank doctine in ww2... wich is basicly "zergrush" with Tanks to fight inf and TD to fight Tanks.

hmm yes.. because theyre designd as "breakthrough" or "longrange" Tank Hunter
economy wise its ike " hmm we have less resources so our Tanks must be better because we cant afford much of them" ... this goes down to the accessibility of oil.. but thats another story.

no idont want an easy game .. but now the normal "game" is US Inf blobb into jackson. A+ blobb move tactics

lol wat?

Jaeger Armor is the high level meta doctrine.

in 2018

in 2018

I think I'll trust someone who works with relic directly and probably was able to ask about some metrics instead of, well, you.

What game are you playing where zooks are effective versus heavy tanks? These aren't Panzershreks we're talking about; bazookas struggle even against Panzer IVs.

Off-map? P-47 Rocket Strafe is good, but you're not going to be able to build an AT defense around it.

Mines? USF only has stock access to the RE M7 light mine; 80 damage and a quick stun. There's the heavy M6 mine, but it's 60 munitions each and only produceable by the M20. Your opponent is going to know what you're doing if he sees one pop up 20 minutes into a game lmao.

This leaves an AT gun wall as the only option other than the Jackson, and once youve dumped the ~810 manpower and ~21 popcap required to make that tactic work it's probably time already for them to get fucked by rocket artillery, obers or stormtroopers. Allied ATGs dont get TWP either so you'll have to be playing against someone ballsy or retarded enough to get satchel charged or already eat enough damage for an infantry snare to work if you want to kill anything without blitzing away first.

If the Pack Howitzer was so much to bitch about on the basis of it's uniqueness, you really have to wonder why the Panther gets a free pass. Your Panzer IVs and Stug AGs wouldnt be useless if Allies actually produced medium tanks instead of the Jackson/TDs, but its already been established that this is what you have to do in order to stop axis heavy armor, which Axis in return have plenty of capability to stall towards, having no such difficulties with stock allied armor aside from maybe the Churchill.

Not everyone has teller mines or shreks, man.

1. maybe u flank with zooks or get to rear of the Tanks.

2. WHuut ? watch some 2v2 replay pls. this this p 47 strave is the "get out of jail card"
i said combiend arms so "No u dont Inf spam an than hit one button to win the game" may buld paks and mines and inf with zooks.

3. and tellars cost 0 ? maybe mine and than bring a pak in and hit the super ammo.
Y-yyes he exactly know where u are drop a mine... sure.

4. no not a wall just "combiend" arms. but hey this requiers micro and i know its hard when u just can build one unit to counter them all... with super speed and acc on the move and super ling range and self heal ... why should some go for combiend arms when u can just win with that super tank.

5. No its not ... its just the easy way ... the no brainer.


i think its time to nerf panther by increasig its coast and "hold on" change jackons with M10

u will never have a proper medium play when US just can hardcounter any Tank in the game with 0 effort.

bazooka struggle vs panzer iv? the fak did i just read xD

Alot of people think, nerfing the jackson means making it useless vs heavies and panthers, no thats not the kind of nerfs people are proposing, its nerfs will be fine as long as its range and penetration stays, it will counter axis heavies comfortably.

USF hand held AT and AT guns can easily counter axis tanks up to the mediums and even panthers to AN extent, only when KT hits the field then its big trouble. Its about time USF should be relying on combined arms instead of INF straight into Jackson. RN they are the most easiest, brain dead faction to play.

I think I'll trust someone who works with relic directly and probably was able to ask about some metrics instead of, well, you.

pls dont reply to someone who plays the game...

pls dont reply to someone who plays the game...

Please stop pulling stuff out of your rear escape hatch and being ignorant about people who make patches and have access to data you aren't even aware exists?

I'm still watching the tournament but the last series of the 2v2 has ELE on first game.

JT has lost popularity but Jaeger armor have remain strong since 2013. Elefant + Stuka and recon/spotting scopes will always be key tools for 2v2 and onward.

What about making HVAP a non vet ability and toning down the Jackson reasonably? I maintain that vet gating usable performance is a no-no and this is no different. You could even have it as a toggle with completely different performance instead of a timed ability, something not unlike (albeit extreme) the isu shells. One for mediums and one for heavier armour instead of all in one but also super shells as a bonus. You get the effect of 2 different tank destroyers without the excuse of only having 1 and thus it needing to be God tier.

That said I still think swapping the Jackson and m10 is a better design. Buffing the m10s HVAP to enable it to fight heavies a bit better but filling the primary role of expendable and mobile TD to support Sherman's, who would now be more affordable and returning the Jackson to its glass cannon role, but doctrinally.

Jaeger Armor is the high level meta doctrine.

in 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XdNfZ32TKs&list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWH1NgFXzCrj5pua2M8gTLx5
[July/August 2v2 Masters Cup playlist]

Please go and count the amount of Jaeger Armor (or the other Elefant doctrine) selections and come back to us. The Elefant, mostly Jaeger Armor's, is still dominating the high level meta.

bazooka struggle vs panzer iv? the fak did i just read xD

Alot of people think, nerfing the jackson means making it useless vs heavies and panthers, no thats not the kind of nerfs people are proposing, its nerfs will be fine as long as its range and penetration stays, it will counter axis heavies comfortably.

USF hand held AT and AT guns can easily counter axis tanks up to the mediums and even panthers to AN extent, only when KT hits the field then its big trouble. Its about time USF should be relying on combined arms instead of INF straight into Jackson. RN they are the most easiest, brain dead faction to play.

Nope, thats still OKW.

USF has the least amount of stock tools available to them out of any army and theyre the most micro intensive.

I think Jackson is in a fine spot since it can be received earlier than Panther and counters mediums effectively & economically while countering heavies economically.

Real issue to address is M10's performance for the ridicilously low cost IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XdNfZ32TKs&list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWH1NgFXzCrj5pua2M8gTLx5
[July/August 2v2 Masters Cup playlist]

Please go and count the amount of Jaeger Armor (or the other Elefant doctrine) selections and come back to us. The Elefant, mostly Jaeger Armor's, is still dominating the high level meta.

ah of course the holy "high lvl meta" just make a game for 50 people. and the other 8000 just l2p.

back to topic:

"USF has the least amount of stock tools available to them out of any army and theyre the most micro intensive."

zooks, mines, paks and the jackson wich make all others obsolete.


"Please stop pulling stuff out of your rear escape hatch and being ignorant about people who make patches and have access to data you aren't even aware exists?"

I specifically made this picture, brought the numbers and percentages, so that it would be clear to every dissatisfied axis player that Jackson is not subject to any discussion. All for objectivity. M36 is the only measure against heavy axis tanks.

But it is, you need to open your point of view, not simply show it.
Did you compared those "objective" values that show Jacksons overperforming? No, you just showed jacksons as mini panthers, wich is wrong by definition, both tanks are different, role and design wise. Therefore there is no productive comparation unless you take ALL the details.

Panthers are the last semi-heavy generalist with better AT than AI. They are not tank destroyers, otherwise panthers should be more than enough to take out allied heavies reliably and effectively, with doesnt happen.

Jacksons have the best backbone in the game, compared to any axis faction. RE, Assengies and Vcrews to repair tanks. A variety of team weapons and mediums to cover the specific gaps missing in the strategy of a real game. Remember, if you adapt ingame you have a chance to win, otherwise its a biased binary result every single time.

Finally, i strongly disagree with the start of the OP, when you used the expression "absolutely necessary" since you know no other option. Its a circular bias to say that. It has been already discussed if not hundreds of times that USF has other not as overperfomant AT options but they all demand more risk/more strategy therefore not appealing for the easy play user.

If you OP agree to discuss in the most objective way, then we should start by agreeing that panthers role =/= jacksons role to begin, even when they both compete for AT superiority. As a sidenote that justifies my point, see what happens when in a void 2 Pz4 fight a single Jackson. Its almost 66% win chance to the couple Pz4 even when they are not meant as dedicated TD tanks.
Added: Even when taking in the fact that a single TD can be saturated, tanks are able to combat wether they are TD or generalist. Thats my point. Panthers are not TDs, jacsons are.

On a second point: The game design. Hardly few people really know what the original faction design was, but we can say for sure that it has changed, towards some mirrored factions.
That has IMO, damaged the original game balance and the subsequent patches are only trying to keep the game together, the game was never meant to reach this far too. Because of that, some factions have very old unit concepts mixed up with recent patches new concepts. That mixture, even when it has been tested is rather chaotic and sometimes springs as OPness. The fair solution is to take mayor balance actions, starting all over from vet system to finally end in the heavy tank, tech bounding.
But because of this, Jacksons performance was meant to be necessary to fight against an OP OKW (that is no longer OP, annoying but not OP)