StuG life not viable

Again, why?
No medium they are intended to counter has 45-50 range.

technically the su 76 has the same role and has 60 range, btw stug is supposed to counter both su 76 and AEC too right ? Those have more than 45

technically the su 76 has the same role and has 60 range, btw stug is supposed to counter both su 76 and AEC too right ? Those have more than 45

Technically, SU-76 fights greater armor, deals lower damage, doesn't have nearly as much armor and dies much easier due to lower health.

Oh, and stug DOES counter AEC as long as you have gren nearby, no idea what you're trying to do by mentioning su-76, was anything in my previous post too hard to understand to make you mention it?

Chance to score a "natural" hit is accuracy*target size.

Collision hits are not easy to calculate and one is better off doing a statistical analysis.

Thanks! I made quick test and looks like it works. I'll include chance to hit for mediums in table and recalculate DPS. Moving penalty works as decrease value? 0.5 moving acc means than chance to hit while moving will decrease at 50%? And 0.75 for sherman - 25% decrease?

Technically, SU-76 fights greater armor, deals lower damage, doesn't have nearly as much armor and dies much easier due to lower health.

Oh, and stug DOES counter AEC as long as you have gren nearby, no idea what you're trying to do by mentioning su-76, was anything in my previous post too hard to understand to make you mention it?

u asked which unit that the stug intends to counter have 45 50 range and I told u, no back paddling now

Btw the stug fight similar armor , especially if u count ukf
And the stug comes later and cost more

Again ur argument is flawed, u saying that the stug does not need 55 range cause it’s target have low range (false), the su 76 performs the same role but with 60 range , I’m not asking for a straight buff, increase price or nerf rof for 5 range

u asked which unit that the stug intends to counter have 45 50 range and I told u, no back paddling now

Does su-76 has 45-50 range?
Yes or no.

Btw the stug fight similar armor , especially if u count ukf
And the stug comes later and cost more

You're talking AEC here? Because no other UKF armor costs less or comes sooner and again, StuG makes a short work of AEC as long as it doesn't get flanked(you know, like any other casemate TD).

Again ur argument is flawed, u saying that the stug does not need 55 range cause it’s target have low range (false), the su 76 performs the same role but with 60 range , I’m not asking for a straight buff, increase price or nerf rof for 5 range

StuG is meant to counter nothing more but medium and premium medium tanks.
None of these has more then 40 range.
SU-76 performance is nowhere near that of a StuG, its role is similar, but its AT performance is much lower, more range is literally all it got over stug. PUMA is similar in performance to SU-76, StuG is miles ahead of it.

And still, you're chasing your tail here, you're constantly repeating it needs 55 range, but never once you've mentioned why would it need it, when all tanks that are intended to be engaged by it have a range of 40.

Its not supposed to go against other TDs.

u asked which unit that the stug intends to counter have 45 50 range and I told u, no back paddling now

Btw the stug fight similar armor , especially if u count ukf
And the stug comes later and cost more

Again ur argument is flawed, u saying that the stug does not need 55 range cause it’s target have low range (false), the su 76 performs the same role but with 60 range , I’m not asking for a straight buff, increase price or nerf rof for 5 range

While about range is true, but armor is full...don't true. Default armor of OST P4 - 180(234 with vet), OKW P4-234. Medium ally armor - 160 (Sherman and Cromwell) and 150 (t-3476). Stug always have 100% chance to pen ally armor at any distance. While su-76 - 88% and 68% on far. 100% and 76% on far-medium (it will become 76/76 when ost p4 got vet2 and 85/85% at pointblank) .
Range all mediums equal - 40.
If use logic - "stug fights against longrange su-76" it needs buff (or su-76 need nerf), then SU-76 need buff (or stug nerf) because "it fights against more healthy units and have lower damage and pen than stug"? After nerf/buffs make "justified" price for each unit.

I don't miss something?

I was talking about general armor, comet , kv 1, Churchill etc

Okw p4 is counted as premium medium as it cost 140 fu so it’s put together with t 34 85 easy 8

And again I’m not asking for buff, increase the price or reduce the rof accordingly
So with micro it can at least shoot once to 60 range tanks and respond to a su 76 or aec

Thanks! I made quick test and looks like it works. I'll include chance to hit for mediums in table and recalculate DPS. Moving penalty works as decrease value? 0.5 moving acc means than chance to hit while moving will decrease at 50%? And 0.75 for sherman - 25% decrease?

Yes the moving accuracy modifier reduce the accuracy and thus the chance to hit.

That only effects "natural" hits so they actual in game difference is not that high since one can still get collision hits.

I was talking about general armor, comet , kv 1, Churchill etc

Okw p4 is counted as premium medium as it cost 140 fu so it’s put together with t 34 85 easy 8

And again I’m not asking for buff, increase the price or reduce the rof accordingly
So with micro it can at least shoot once to 60 range tanks and respond to a su 76 or aec

You are make so great jump, from mediums,AEC and su-76 to doctrinal mediums and heavy tanks, that i missed it.

Churchill and comet miss - it's panther timeframe, they come sooo late than stug (you must make upgrade and after you can build one). You can use stug against them, but not 1, at least 2 or 3.

Kv-1 - heavy tank, not main prey for stug. It's panther food.

T-3485 and E8 - doctrinal mediums, you could use stug against them, but obviuos that stug will be in bad position. It's doctrine and it's fair that doctrinal armor have advantage against regular ones.

OKW-P4 it's regular medium for OKW (higher cost for higher performance, like everything for OKW). It can be saw in almost every game vs OKW, while t-3485, E8 only if doctrines were choosed.

Main targets for stug - non-doc mediums, LVs as for su-76 too. And again, if you want buff range, you must get nerf too (as su-76 got nerf to pen while buff to accuracy). Justified? I'll recalculate DPS and make comparsion regular STUG against 60 range STUG and how the whole picture will change. Then we will see who more economical effective - su-76 with 60 range or stug with 50 against regular enemy mediums.

And I said nerf it, increase price / reduce rof(rate of fire) etc

I know it is just RNG but still, why building Stug or sherman for AT when you know this can happen.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/i9X7JPmnMqA?t=1042[/youtube]

And what ? Same can happen to p 4 vs Sherman, they have about the same chance to pen each other
that guys got super unlucky as he even missed some shoots on the move with 0.75 accuracy vs p4 0.5 that actually hit

I know it is just RNG but still, why building Stug or sherman for AT when you know this can happen.

Shit happens. Here's a fun experiment:

1. Put a Sherman and a P4 against each other in Cheatcommands.
2. Put one on hold-fire, make it invinicible and give it to the disabled enemy AI.
3. Let the other tank fire on it and keep track of the bounces and penetrations.

You'Il find good and bad "luck" often come in streaks with shots bouncing 5 times in a row and then penetrating 10 times in a row. It's why RNG can be such a big factor in this game sometimes.

Ok, i almost ended new sheet. Only Health and Penetration (i have some thoughts, but need time about it) need recalculate for STUG 60 tweaks. I used accuraccy to calculate effectivness of unmoving STUG and SU-76.
Also some calculations about STUG 60 with possible tweaks to make it clone of old STUG (in terms of dps) but with new range.
Look at Sheet 2 "DPS 2". I also made some "notes" while make comparsions.

Battle List Stug vs SU-76 (and STUG 60 tweaks)

Some notes:
Compare only equal vetted enemies: vet0 medium vs vet0 TD, vet3 (vet5 for OKW) medium vs vet3 TD.

Tweaks for STUG 60 made only for one stat at time - damage, cost fuel, ROF. If ROF was changed, it means other stats were still as for current STUG.

IMHO STUG beat SU-76 (in battles against enemy mediums) in every possible ways in terms of DPS, i don't think it need 60 range or buffs. More obvious that SU-76 need serious boost to find itself role in game.

2 thing
1 okw p4 is actually a premium medium (like t34-85 and easy 8) as it cost 140 fuel
2 why does okw p4 get's 2.6 reload time at vet 3 ? i mean it has the same reload bonus as ost p4 of 30% ?

stug target size is 17 not 20


and could u try to calculate raw dps with 55 range and a cut to reload speed like 10-20%

btw consider that the stug comes a tier (around 50 fuel) later than su 76 and cost more (15 more fuel)
same for p4 it cost 10 more fuel than Cromwell and 30 more than t 34 76

edit: ask vipper or other calc expert if everything is alright, im not good with excel

2 thing
1 okw p4 is actually a premium medium (like t34-85 and easy 8) as it cost 140 fuel
2 why does okw p4 get's 2.6 reload time at vet 3 ? i mean it has the same reload bonus as ost p4 of 30% ?

stug target size is 17 not 20


and could u try to calculate raw dps with 55 range and a cut to reload speed like 10-20%

btw consider that the stug comes a tier (around 50 fuel) later than su 76 and cost more (15 more fuel)
same for p4 it cost 10 more fuel than Cromwell and 30 more than t 34 76

edit: ask vipper or other calc expert if everything is alright, im not good with excel

1. About OKW P4 i already said - it can be seen in every game OKW, while t-3485,E8 only in doctrines.
2. Vet3 means ACE (for OKW vet 5). It vet 5 actually.

I used stats from coh2db and recent patchnote (for pen and acc of SU-76), if target size is 17 i will change it.
Stug comes 0,5 tier later (some players give to T3 OST 3.5 value). But ally mediums comes to Tier4, while SU-76 comes on t3. We have equal situation, when t3.5 Stug fights against T4 mediums and t3 Su-76 against T3.5 medium. Any disagree? T-3476, Sherman, Cromwell comes more later than stug too (if we consider that both player have equal fuel income and no one didn't have both fuel points).

About mediums - read notes, OST P4 not bad at all. And it cost, more than right as for me. In theory we could make the same comparsion between mediums.

Yes i could recalculate for 55 range. I'll make new column.

1. About OKW P4 i already said - it can be seen in every game OKW, while t-3485,E8 only in doctrines.
2. Vet3 means ACE (for OKW vet 5). It vet 5 actually.

I used stats from coh2db and recent patchnote (for pen and acc of SU-76), if target size is 17 i will change it.
Stug comes 0,5 tier later (some players give to T3 OST 3.5 value). But ally mediums comes to Tier4, while SU-76 comes on t3. We have equal situation, when t3.5 Stug fights against T4 mediums and t3 Su-76 against T3.5 medium. Any disagree? T-3476, Sherman, Cromwell comes more later than stug too (if we consider that both player have equal fuel income and no one didn't have both fuel points).

About mediums - read notes, OST P4 not bad at all. And it cost, more than right as for me. In theory we could make the same comparsion between mediums.

Yes i could recalculate for 55 range. I'll make new column.

that does not change it only gets 30% reload speed even at max vet, the db stats are probably wrong about that one

osther and ukf literally spend the same fuel to reach tier 3 if they rush (ukf skips side upgrades, osther skips tier 1 and 2 buildings)

OKW p4 is still a premium medium, it's not the doc that make it a premium medium, it's the price and stats, it cost 30 more fuel than a cromwell and comes later too

Okay, i edit table - change target size of stug and su-76 to 17 and now in table OKW P4 use stats from vet3, not vet 5 (all values were recalculated accordingly).
Look on new sheet "Lifetime". The most interesting is last column - remain HP. Looks like stug against any ally medium very cost effective. While SU-76, only waste of resources, it always dies. With vet situation becomes even worse, while vet0 SU-76 against vet0 P4 have few chances (i would be say - which RNG better).


New Table of battle effectivness STUG and SU-76 against enemy mediums

as it should, i mean su 76 cost almost half of the p 4 ,comes earlier and can kite from 60 range, stug has 10 less range cost more both tech and unit, I would expect to counter medium tank that cost equal or slightly more when they rush it form the front as it's its only role (at least the su 76 has barrage)

the su 76 can be safe from harm with it's 60 range (even from the stug) while the stug with 50 range will have to be in a worst position and even be out range form su 76 and other TD