then what about 55 range ?
Range, cheap cost, decent penetration.
You can have only 2.
Plus, why does it need 55 range?
There are no range 50 mediums its intended to counter, only 40 range ones.
StuG life not viable
6 Aug 2019, 10:08 AM
#41
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Range, cheap cost, decent penetration.
You can have only 2.
Plus, why does it need 55 range?
There are no range 50 mediums its intended to counter, only 40 range ones.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Aug 2019, 10:16 AM
#42
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Nerf Pz4 Pen values and you'll see people build them again.
Heh, 125/115/110 penetration isn't bad enough already?
6 Aug 2019, 10:19 AM
#43
Posts: 711
then what about 55 range ?
As Katitof said, you can't have all goodies in one unit in T3. I think it possible to give stug more buffs, but only if it will be moved to T4. Then it will become OST version of su-85...Need OST their own su-85 it's big question.
6 Aug 2019, 10:19 AM
#44
Posts: 4474
obv there would be trade off, like reduced ROF or increase in price
Range, cheap cost, decent penetration.
You can have only 2.
Plus, why does it need 55 range?
There are no range 50 mediums its intended to counter, only 40 range ones.
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 10:31 AM
#45
Posts: 711
Heh, 125/115/110 penetration isn't bad enough already?
I prefer compare pen/armor values than pure values, when talking about performance of similar units.
Pentration from mid to frontal armor values:
P4 115/234 (vet 3)
Sherman 130/160 (vet 3)
Cromwell 120/160 (vet 3)
Then let's count chances to pen frontal armor:
P4 vs Sherman - 115/160=71%
P4 vs Cromwell - 115/160=71%
Sherman vs P4 - 130/234=55%
Cromwell vs P4 - 120/234=51%
6 Aug 2019, 10:45 AM
#46
Posts: 4474
yea and u prefer to forget cost and other vet bonuses
I prefer compare pen/armor values than pure values, when talking about performance of similar units.
Pentration from mid to frontal armor values:
P4 115/234 (vet 3)
Sherman 130/160 (vet 3)
Cromwell 120/160 (vet 3)
Then let's count chances to pen frontal armor:
P4 vs Sherman - 115/160=71%
P4 vs Cromwell - 115/160=71%
Sherman vs P4 - 130/234=55%
Cromwell vs P4 - 120/234=51%
Try compare them at vet 0
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 10:58 AM
#47
Posts: 711
yea and u prefer to forget cost and other vet bonuses
Don't see any problems, debuff armor, makes p4 like cromwell or sherman. Allies bazookas, piats and su-76 will be happy to fight against 160 armor. And don't forget that allies medium could be build from top-tier building, while ost in 1 tier earlir.
6 Aug 2019, 11:08 AM
#48
Posts: 4474
no they come at the same time
Don't see any problems, debuff armor, makes p4 like cromwell or sherman. Allies bazookas, piats and su-76 will be happy to fight against 160 armor. And don't forget that allies medium could be build from top-tier building, while ost in 1 tier earlir.
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 11:13 AM
#49
Posts: 4474
U purposely ignored other vet bonuses and did at vet 3 cause u know they are comparable at vet 0 , try to hide ur bias better next time , one could do the same with panther and Jackson only showing range and pen
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 11:13 AM
#50
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Don't increase Stug range to 60, the unit is fine as it is. I just wish its comparably weak TWP (to Pak40) would be replaced with a sight ability like the Su85. But then that would make Scopes too strong again.
I swear, Ostheer would be so much better if Spotting Scopes got the nerf hammer so Ostheer can get a more reliable lategame sight method than 222, Sniper and Pioneers.
I swear, Ostheer would be so much better if Spotting Scopes got the nerf hammer so Ostheer can get a more reliable lategame sight method than 222, Sniper and Pioneers.
6 Aug 2019, 11:19 AM
#52
Posts: 711
no they come at the same time
I don't know exact digits, but let's imagine that it's right. What you will get in that case? German "sherman/cromwell" that have the same stats and abilities as allies, and don't have any strong sides against.
You just cutted off your own hands with that decision. Every armor combat between your and ally medium become very danger for you, you got 2 almost equal mediums. Who will win in battle if opponents have equal skills?
But if you prefer light armor to other bonuses (accuracy, abilities) why not? When USF and UKF every game will be use M10 against you, soviet su-76 with spam t-70. You maybe understand that more "old" P4 was better than new "modern".
6 Aug 2019, 11:26 AM
#53
Posts: 4474
well we can make all unit the same for each faction At that point
I don't know exact digits, but let's imagine that it's right. What you will get in that case? German "sherman/cromwell" that have the same stats and abilities as allies, and don't have any strong sides against.
You just cutted off your own hands with that decision. Every armor combat between your and ally medium become very danger for you, you got 2 almost equal mediums. Who will win in battle if opponents have equal skills?
But if you prefer light armor to other bonuses (accuracy, abilities) why not? When USF and UKF every game will be use M10 against you, soviet su-76 with spam t-70. You maybe understand that more "old" P4 was better than new "modern".
The p4 has average pen, that’s it
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 11:32 AM
#54
Posts: 711
well we can make all unit the same for each faction At that point
The p4 has average pen, that’s it
Not me wanted that P4 have the same bonuses as allies. Current P4 more than over fit me.
15 pen less than sherman, 5 less than cromwell and 15 more that t-3476))) AVERAGE!!!
But have 74 more armor. THE BEST ONE!!
See the difference?
6 Aug 2019, 11:38 AM
#55
Posts: 4474
again u are counting vet bonuses only at vet 0 it only has 20 more armor , and btw other tank get other bonuses, like smoke, moving accuracy, etc
Not me wanted that P4 have the same bonuses as allies. Current P4 more than over fit me.
15 pen less than sherman, 5 less than cromwell and 15 more that t-3476))) AVERAGE!!!
But have 74 more armor. THE BEST ONE!!
See the difference?
Ex: Sherman has the best accuracy and ai, Cromwell is a Ferrari, a t 76 is cheaper than food in Russia (true fact tho)
If I’m not wrong the Cromwell get 2 reload bonuses first 30 and then 20 and they are multiplicative
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 11:46 AM
#56
Posts: 711
again u are counting vet bonuses only at vet 0 it only has 20 more armor , and btw other tank get other bonuses, like smoke, moving accuracy, etc
Ex: Sherman has the best accuracy and ai, Cromwell is a Ferrari, a t 76 is cheaper than food in Russia (true fact tho)
...My god..I though that you are already agree with my point, that p4 equal to any ally medium only will kill OST gameplay. Choose any ally medium in which you want transform your P4. Only don't say me, that you choose t-3476. Or you want also rebalance all ally handheld AT weapon and all light TD in game, to make better environment for new thin-skinned p4?
Don't increase Stug range to 60, the unit is fine as it is. I just wish its comparably weak TWP (to Pak40) would be replaced with a sight ability like the Su85. But then that would make Scopes too strong again.
I swear, Ostheer would be so much better if Spotting Scopes got the nerf hammer so Ostheer can get a more reliable lategame sight method than 222, Sniper and Pioneers.
Add to werfer instead counterbarrage (i never saw that someone used it) flares it will bring new life in unit and make it more desirable. Also we can add upgrade for halftruck that make from it observation point (not like IRHT, like t-70). I think we must return in game rare used units. Abilities and upgrades could do that.
6 Aug 2019, 11:52 AM
#57
Posts: 4474
I don’t get ur point, people are asking to nerf p4 to make stug viable (very fucking stupid idea), we were just arguing that the p4 is average not op
Then I personally think the stug could use 55 range at the cost of rof or price
Then I personally think the stug could use 55 range at the cost of rof or price
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
6 Aug 2019, 11:52 AM
#58
Posts: 5279
They arnt bad, just not in meta but cause mediums arnt in meta. Things are a bit skewed with the very strong allied infantry and TDs making the place that the StuG shines somewhat vacant.
#stalinwept
6 Aug 2019, 12:08 PM
#59
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I prefer compare pen/armor values than pure values, when talking about performance of similar units.
Pentration from mid to frontal armor values:
P4 115/234 (vet 3)
Sherman 130/160 (vet 3)
Cromwell 120/160 (vet 3)
Then let's count chances to pen frontal armor:
P4 vs Sherman - 115/160=71%
P4 vs Cromwell - 115/160=71%
Sherman vs P4 - 130/234=55%
Cromwell vs P4 - 120/234=51%
That sure is one biased comparison if I ever saw one. How about we take their vet 0 performance to compare and not the vet 3 one which obviously favors the Panzer IV because of its armor bonus? Why would you take a relatively rare scenario (all tanks vet 3) for a comparison?
I wasn't comparing Panzer IV penetration to Allied medium tank penetration anyway, I was comparing it to the StuG's. Which has 100% chance to pen mediums at all ranges and is much better versus heavier armed targets. There is no reason to further nerf the Panzer IV penetration (which I was responding to), because it is already quite bad, especially compared to the StuG's.
6 Aug 2019, 12:08 PM
#60
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
They arnt bad, just not in meta but cause mediums arnt in meta.
And, again, binding heavies to tech will see re-emergence of meds.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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