What do people think of Conscripts after the patch?
2 Aug 2019, 03:05 AM
#41
Posts: 479
They are pretty solid once they get the upgrade, it just comes too late in my opinion. If it came with Tier 3 maybe we would see more variety in build orders, right now I think Penals are still overall better.
2 Aug 2019, 03:29 AM
#42
Posts: 301
The upgrade comes too late to fight okw.
Early mid your cons are still getting trampled by okw infantry, and it gets worse if you add a luchs to the mix. This means they can't support your team weapons.
Against grens they are still fine, but Pgrens can also run them down
Volks need to be nerfed and are going to get nerfed on the next patches.
Currently, conscript builds run this cycle
1) You go 3 cons to get a solid early game. You go for medics ASAP
2) Everyone techs. You ponder what should you go next: either a maxim or call in infantry
Cons no longer being able to fight well due to axis infantry getting upgrades. You rely on elite infantry and support weapons to survive until the T70. (This is the critical point of the match and the weakest point of your build)
3) You reach T4 and upgrade your cons and start using them as bullet sponges on key areas to maintain control of certain points
4) In the unsuing carnage, your vehicles are going to decide the fate of the match.
Early mid your cons are still getting trampled by okw infantry, and it gets worse if you add a luchs to the mix. This means they can't support your team weapons.
Against grens they are still fine, but Pgrens can also run them down
Volks need to be nerfed and are going to get nerfed on the next patches.
Currently, conscript builds run this cycle
1) You go 3 cons to get a solid early game. You go for medics ASAP
2) Everyone techs. You ponder what should you go next: either a maxim or call in infantry
Cons no longer being able to fight well due to axis infantry getting upgrades. You rely on elite infantry and support weapons to survive until the T70. (This is the critical point of the match and the weakest point of your build)
3) You reach T4 and upgrade your cons and start using them as bullet sponges on key areas to maintain control of certain points
4) In the unsuing carnage, your vehicles are going to decide the fate of the match.
2 Aug 2019, 09:33 AM
#43
Posts: 23
IMO cons are fine. They're kinda weak compared to other mainlines but they can still hold their own and they're so much cheaper than any other mainline to reinforce. I think you do need to use elite infantry with them to make them work, which is fine because they save you so much MP and soviet elites come at 2cp. The 7 man thing is great for lategame and they already get really good vet too.
Making a faction rely on call in inf to have functional mainline inf is bad design in my opinion. It renders many of all sov commanders useless.
Also cons are not so cheap to reinforce.
- Cons: 240 mp 6 man 20 mp to reinforce. 240÷6=40 which means reinforce is 50% effective.
- Volks: 250 mp 5 man 25 mp to reinforce. 250÷5=50 which means reinforce is 50% effective.
A unit with bad reinforce cost would be Obers which have only 20% effective reinforce cost.
So volks and cons have the same effective reinforce cost but volks is a superior unit that can perform early, mid and late game. Gets utility through natural tech progression and have good non-doc weapon upgrade. Able to reach vet 5 on top of this.
I agree that the 7 man thing is actual good for lategame utility and makes merging and zerg rush for snares less risky.
2 Aug 2019, 10:09 AM
#44
Posts: 1979
imo a 10% damage boost to the conscript mosin + a change of the upgrade cost to 60 munitions + reduction to T1/2 tech requirements is the best way to make conscripts finally viable... then we can safely buff the maxim without creating all maxim armies...
2 Aug 2019, 10:22 AM
#45
Posts: 711
Making a faction rely on call in inf to have functional mainline inf is bad design in my opinion. It renders many of all sov commanders useless.
This is the most cancerous thing in SU design - commanders should enhance and enrich gameplay, not tied up entire faction in borders, where every commander without guards or shocks almost useless for regular players.
You can play for every faction without commander, but not as SU (if skills of opponents equal).
Problem with cons, in that (i don't know why so many peoples consider so) cons for opinion the most of players - are support, utility units...And which units they should support? Support support weapons with maximum useless maxim in head? But who will be carry in that case? Cons should support penals? But penals tough enough and could good fight without cons and with AT upgrade can snare vehicles as well (and you even don't trade your fuel for snare). No one will be build 2 penals + 2 cons. Almost every player choose 3 penals instead.
2 Aug 2019, 10:44 AM
#46
Posts: 23
Cons should support penals? But penals tough enough and could good fight without cons and with AT upgrade can snare vehicles as well (and you even don't trade your fuel for snare). No one will be build 2 penals + 2 cons. Almost every player choose 3 penals instead.
yeah if you got t1 and have access to penals there is really no need to ever buying cons. Cons are only used if you go a certain doctrine or chose to go t2.
I honestly think that cons should get their utility upgrades for free like grens, volks and so on. So when you got t2 = cons gets AT grenades. T1 = cons gets Molotovs. Or something like that. T3 could add the 7th man upgrade. That way cons could at least be a very versatile unit that does not require the player to sink a lot of resources into to make them so.
2 Aug 2019, 10:49 AM
#47
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
imo a 10% damage boost to the conscript mosin + a change of the upgrade cost to 60 munitions + reduction to T1/2 tech requirements is the best way to make conscripts finally viable... then we can safely buff the maxim without creating all maxim armies...
That would be waaaay to early.
Upgrade should be as it is, but in T3.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
2 Aug 2019, 10:50 AM
#48
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
This is the most cancerous thing in SU design - commanders should enhance and enrich gameplay, not tied up entire faction in borders, where every commander without guards or shocks almost useless for regular players.
You can play for every faction without commander, but not as SU (if skills of opponents equal).
Problem with cons, in that (i don't know why so many peoples consider so) cons for opinion the most of players - are support, utility units...And which units they should support? Support support weapons with maximum useless maxim in head? But who will be carry in that case? Cons should support penals? But penals tough enough and could good fight without cons and with AT upgrade can snare vehicles as well (and you even don't trade your fuel for snare). No one will be build 2 penals + 2 cons. Almost every player choose 3 penals instead.
Yeah, the disgusting initial infantry design, have two starting main infantry units, because of which they begin to interfere with each other and come up with ridiculous roles. This shit is need to stop, need to combine the Conscripts and Penals in one unit.
2 Aug 2019, 11:15 AM
#49
Posts: 4474
all faction units cost like this rifle etc (not IS cause IS is BALANCED
- Cons: 240 mp 6 man 20 mp to reinforce. 240÷6=40 which means reinforce is 50% effective.
- Volks: 250 mp 5 man 25 mp to reinforce. 250÷5=50 which means reinforce is 50% effective.
)what people means for cheap is the reinforce for a single model cause they still have 80 hp not lower but are 6 so they are cheaper to reinforce
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
2 Aug 2019, 11:17 AM
#50
Posts: 4474
imo a 10% damage boost to the conscript mosin + a change of the upgrade cost to 60 munitions + reduction to T1/2 tech requirements is the best way to make conscripts finally viable... then we can safely buff the maxim without creating all maxim armies...oh yes, first we overbuff cons by increasing their damage and making the upgrade come before lmg 42, and then we buff the maxim too, why not delete the axis and only play soviet civil war ?...
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im adding enough useless points ?.....
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
2 Aug 2019, 11:21 AM
#51
Posts: 711
Yeah, the disgusting initial infantry design, have two starting main infantry units, because of which they begin to interfere with each other and come up with ridiculous roles. This shit is need to stop, need to combine the Conscripts and Penals in one unit.
Reason of these "root of evil" in initial SU design as versatile combine arms faction, where SU have few narrow specialists squad (snipers, su-85, katy, maxim) and all other units could do both AI and AT works.
But we are all see which problem such decision now create - su-76 was cheap and have free barrage? Mass spam, nerfed. "Only guards" meta? Mass spam, nerfed. Mass cons with at rifles (times when AT rifles kill infantry better than tanks)? Mass spam, nerfed. M-42 with canister shot? Mass spam, nerfed. And current situation lead us to way where only real way to play for SU - use specialists squads - penals, shocks, zis, t-70 and e.t.c.
What i want to say - each unit that can do 2 work, only effective in lagre numbers. Relics did faction that have spam as design base. SU should get more narrow specialists, not "good for all, best in-nothing" units. Or we again will get new "spam" soviet meta. Penals must be reverted to specialists, cons must become main infantry with utility abilites to support other specialists units.
2 Aug 2019, 11:26 AM
#52
Posts: 711
all faction units cost like this rifle etc (not IS cause IS is BALANCED
what people means for cheap is the reinforce for a single model cause they still have 80 hp not lower but are 6 so they are cheaper to reinforce
While arifmetic and simple logic right, there is one thing that peoples lost - cons lost models more and faster, that lead to huge MP drain, even if you play correctly. While penlas that cost more and more expensive to reinforce - save your MP, if you use them correctly. Cons like old car which you must instantly repair if want to drive it, while penals - new car, more expensive, but you don't need to buy details every time and waste yout time on repair. If you crash your new car, lost will be more painfull, but it's skill question.
2 Aug 2019, 11:30 AM
#53
Posts: 4474
they do have 80 more hp tho
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
2 Aug 2019, 11:33 AM
#54
Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2
Reason of these "root of evil" in initial SU design as versatile combine arms faction, where SU have few narrow specialists squad (snipers, su-85, katy, maxim) and all other units could do both AI and AT works.
But we are all see which problem such decision now create - su-76 was cheap and have free barrage? Mass spam, nerfed. "Only guards" meta? Mass spam, nerfed. Mass cons with at rifles (times when AT rifles kill infantry better than tanks)? Mass spam, nerfed. M-42 with canister shot? Mass spam, nerfed. And current situation lead us to way where only real way to play for SU - use specialists squads - penals, shocks, zis, t-70 and e.t.c.
What i want to say - each unit that can do 2 work, only effective in lagre numbers. Relics did faction that have spam as design base. SU should get more narrow specialists, not "good for all, best in-nothing" units. Or we again will get new "spam" soviet meta. Penals must be reverted to specialists, cons must become main infantry with utility abilites to support other specialists units.
Conscripts must flow to the Penals. That is, get the SVT-40 purchase opportunity. Penalties are the ridiculous design I have ever seen, they were disgustingly designed from the beginning: they were the place holder in T1 for Shooks / Guard and were replaced by them when choosing a doctrine. Then they turned out to be Engineers on steroids with a flamethrower, then they made meaningless conscripts, then they made the Guards unnecessary by getting PTRS. This unit must be eradicated from the game, the Soviet infantry units must be structured and standardized. Conscripts - the main infantry, Guard - AT support / Long-range combat, Shock troops - CQC, destruction of fortifications.
2 Aug 2019, 11:37 AM
#55
Posts: 14
oh yes, first we overbuff cons by increasing their damage and making the upgrade come before lmg 42, and then we buff the maxim too, why not delete the axis and only play soviet civil war ?...
....
....
.
...
.
.
.
....
im adding enough useless points ?.....
The LMG42 upgrade for Grens comes at battlephase 1, correct? So, around 5 minutes into the game, roughly around the same time for Soviets to get T1/T2. Maybe even earlier. Mobilize reserves costs 50 muni while the LMG costs 60. I don't see how that would make the 7th man upgrade come faster than LMG42s.
2 Aug 2019, 11:37 AM
#56
Posts: 711
they do have 80 more hp tho
Don't have non-doc weapon upgrades, don't have normal grenades which have every other mainline infantry in-game and still your MP drain, why? Why volks that have 80hp less and cost only 10mp more, can beat them from dusk till dawn without efforts? When grens get their mg-42...but you know what happens in that case with cons.
2 Aug 2019, 11:39 AM
#57
Posts: 2358
Making a faction rely on call in inf to have functional mainline inf is bad design in my opinion. It renders many of all sov commanders useless.
Also cons are not so cheap to reinforce.
I agree with the last point, but faction designs are heavily discussed constantly with no productive results. I disagree about relying on call-in infantry being bad design, it could have been badly implemented but adds risks/rewards and originality.
So volks and cons have the same effective reinforce cost but volks is a superior unit that can perform early, mid and late game. Gets utility through natural tech progression and have good non-doc weapon upgrade. Able to reach vet 5 on top of this.
I agree that the 7 man thing is actual good for lategame utility and makes merging and zerg rush for snares less risky.
Volks vs cons is an endless debate with more argument casualties than ww1+ww2 combined. I would suggest you not to continue on that road. Not because i like bully volks, but because their differences are deeply rooted in the factions design, available units to support and overall endgame tactics.
Also cons are not that bad in this meta, they are not for the newest players though, since they will not win engagements 1v1, but they can win most fights with tactics and some mindgames.
I wonder if there is a possible way to make cons cheaper to reinforce until T3... to allow some riskier plays using cons. You cant also spam cons if the game has only 5-8 mins and MGs clearly dominate that time frame too.
2 Aug 2019, 11:47 AM
#58
Posts: 711
Also cons are not that bad in this meta, they are not for the newest players though, since they will not win engagements 1v1, but they can win most fights with tactics and some mindgames.
I wonder if there is a possible way to make cons cheaper to reinforce until T3... to allow some riskier plays using cons. You cant also spam cons if the game has only 5-8 mins and MGs clearly dominate that time frame too.
I already told that to make cons viable should only 2 ways:
1. Stat changes
2. Economical changes
If we don't want turn them to more potent infantry units, we should decrease economical pressure on player when he play through cons. Main problem in MP drain.
1. Decrease cost of reinforce to 16 mp, when medics deployed.
2. Fasten reinforce when T1 or T2 deployed.
3. Fasten sandbags instead flare mines, which help them easier build defense and fight against enemies.
4. Decrease Muni cost of molotovs with teching.
5. And maybe slightly decrease their main cost to 220.
OST have mg-42 and early PGrens, OKW have their volks and sturms. Each german faction have tools to deal with such defensive oriented infantry.
2 Aug 2019, 11:50 AM
#59
Posts: 2358
Thats why i suggest to allow cons to be cheaper before T3.
It will be the only mainline infantry that changes its cost decrementally as the game continues, but its reasonable since cons are ment to early game and late game they have the last patch buff.
Edit: The way i see cons, they are ment to be rubbish soldiers but well used tactics should make them one of the best mainlines.
What i mean is: Make cons 10 MP to reinforce, If you ever build T3 (wich you will do) then cons reinforce cost becomes 20, as it is now.
Edit: Or even better, tie to T2 a buff that reduces cons reinforce cost (or make it a cheap ass side tech)
It will be the only mainline infantry that changes its cost decrementally as the game continues, but its reasonable since cons are ment to early game and late game they have the last patch buff.
Edit: The way i see cons, they are ment to be rubbish soldiers but well used tactics should make them one of the best mainlines.
What i mean is: Make cons 10 MP to reinforce, If you ever build T3 (wich you will do) then cons reinforce cost becomes 20, as it is now.
Edit: Or even better, tie to T2 a buff that reduces cons reinforce cost (or make it a cheap ass side tech)
2 Aug 2019, 12:14 PM
#60
Posts: 23
all faction units cost like this rifle etc (not IS cause IS is BALANCED
what people means for cheap is the reinforce for a single model cause they still have 80 hp not lower but are 6 so they are cheaper to reinforce
Obers are 80mp pr. model as well so no its not all faction units cost are like 50%.
Sure they have 80hp but they also die easier than other models because of RA. Anyone who plays cons and volks often knows which bleeds you the most and which is more expensive as an upkeep.
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