Tank Point Blank

Just adding deflection damage, something around 50% for TDs and 25% for everything else, and reducing pen across the board would solve most problems with tank combat in the game.

TDs are still dealing damage and eventually forcing heavy armored vehicles away, while heavier tanks are bouncing reliably but still taking damage. This way the system is not so black and white.

I think that's an interesting idea, not sure how well it will fare though without screwing over the current balance.
If there ist larger interest for it, balance team could add it to a pre build. I could do the calculations for most of the tanks as I have the data for them, but I can't implement them.

I think the idea is particularly interesting for the T34, since it is currently a bit underwhelming and would really fit its design. Maybe as a free, timed vet1 ability. That would also make vet1 worth it maybe

I think its just too late in the games life cycle for a major mechanical change like this. The core of CoH2 is arguably tank combat and this would be a pretty big change. I'd like to see more range values or something like this in a new CoH though.

Mechanically, it's less radical and less impactful than the tech changes the recent patches have made. All you're doing is tweaking the penetration curve to spike up within 10 metres. Patches make changes like that all the time.

I'm not exaggerating when I say this change'd probably take less than two hours of work to implement. You literally only need to change four numbers for each vehicle.

I think that's an interesting idea, not sure how well it will fare though without screwing over the current balance.

In terms of actually being able to use the point blank mechanic, not much. If a player doesn't want your T-34s at point blank range of his tank, he has a plethora of tools to stop you.

This is by far and away the biggest deal for the T-34 and Cromwell, which are fast tanks with iffy penetration.

For example, take killing Panthers with T-34s.

• You need at least two T-34s, which is already a higher resource investment than the Panther.
  
• You need a way to keep the Panther from reversing (snare it, button it, flank and block it, ram it with a third T-34)
  
• You need to clear out its AT support.
  
• You need to clear out every snaring infantry squad nearby, because one snare will completely neuter a tank.

I think the biggest impact is likely to be the threat of it. It's still going to be almost impossible to kill a supported heavy tank with mediums (or a supported medium tank with lights) but an unsupported heavier tank marauding around the enemy backline with no support is in danger.

This sounds like something I wouldn't enjoy, and deflection damage seems much more appropriate... but for the sake of my curiosity, how much would fast firing vehicles like Luchs, Centaur, Ostwind, 222, or t-70 get?

This sounds like something I wouldn't enjoy, and deflection damage seems much more appropriate... but for the sake of my curiosity, how much would fast firing vehicles like Luchs, Centaur, Ostwind, 222, or t-70 get?

Deflection damage would be a much more radical change.


As for your second question, my current rule of thumb is double far penetration.

So for the vehicles you listed:

• T-70: 80 from 50
  
• Luchs: 40 from 20
  
• Ostwind: 70 from 55
  
• Centaur: 40 from 30

Only when you're pretty much touching the enemy tank, though.

Mechanically, it's less radical and less impactful than the tech changes the recent patches have made. All you're doing is tweaking the penetration curve to spike up within 10 metres. Patches make changes like that all the time.

I'm not exaggerating when I say this change'd probably take less than two hours of work to implement. You literally only need to change four numbers for each vehicle.



In terms of actually being able to use the point blank mechanic, not much. If a player doesn't want your T-34s at point blank range of his tank, he has a plethora of tools to stop you.

This is by far and away the biggest deal for the T-34 and Cromwell, which are fast tanks with iffy penetration.

For example, take killing Panthers with T-34s.

• You need at least two T-34s, which is already a higher resource investment than the Panther.
  
• You need a way to keep the Panther from reversing (snare it, button it, flank and block it, ram it with a third T-34)
  
• You need to clear out its AT support.
  
• You need to clear out every snaring infantry squad nearby, because one snare will completely neuter a tank.

I think the biggest impact is likely to be the threat of it. It's still going to be almost impossible to kill a supported heavy tank with mediums (or a supported medium tank with lights) but an unsupported heavier tank marauding around the enemy backline with no support is in danger.

I don't think it would be hard to patch in, I mean mechanically it will fundamentally change how we move, shoot and communicate with different units. I don't think that's such a great idea this late into the games life. For CoH3 I think its a great suggestion though.

Deflection damage would be a much more radical change.


As for your second question, my current rule of thumb is double far penetration.

So for the vehicles you listed:

• T-70: 80 from 50
  
• Luchs: 40 from 20
  
• Ostwind: 70 from 55
  
• Centaur: 40 from 30

Only when you're pretty much touching the enemy tank, though.

I'm not against radical changes, I am just thinking in terms of which change would result (in my estimation) in a game I enjoy playing more.

The reason I ask about pen is I'd be curious how lethal some of the fast-firing low-damage vehicles would become to armored heavies. In the case of a vehicle that has a burst of 5+ shots, even if only 1-2 penetrate, it's significant damage against something like an Elefant or ISU-152 (or even KT or IS-2, since they're so slow to move).

According to coh2db/com/stats, elefant has 110 rear armor. The centaur would land 1/3rd of its shots if it got behind it.

I know, I know, "if you got flanked you're already dead and...." but just playing it out in my head.

I'm not against radical changes, I am just thinking in terms of which change would result (in my estimation) in a game I enjoy playing more.

The reason I ask about pen is I'd be curious how lethal some of the fast-firing low-damage vehicles would become to armored heavies. In the case of a vehicle that has a burst of 5+ shots, even if only 1-2 penetrate, it's significant damage against something like an Elefant or ISU-152 (or even KT or IS-2, since they're so slow to move).

According to coh2db/com/stats, elefant has 110 rear armor. The centaur would land 1/3rd of its shots if it got behind it.

I know, I know, "if you got flanked you're already dead and...." but just playing it out in my head.

I mean if a centaur gets in behind an elefant it doesn't really matter what the balance says the wehr player is going to lose.

But worst case just don't crank up the pen of the units that are fast firing by as much

Mechanically, it's less radical and less impactful than the tech changes the recent patches have made. All you're doing is tweaking the penetration curve to spike up within 10 metres. Patches make changes like that all the time.

I'm not exaggerating when I say this change'd probably take less than two hours of work to implement. You literally only need to change four numbers for each vehicle.



In terms of actually being able to use the point blank mechanic, not much. If a player doesn't want your T-34s at point blank range of his tank, he has a plethora of tools to stop you.

This is by far and away the biggest deal for the T-34 and Cromwell, which are fast tanks with iffy penetration.

For example, take killing Panthers with T-34s.

• You need at least two T-34s, which is already a higher resource investment than the Panther.
  
• You need a way to keep the Panther from reversing (snare it, button it, flank and block it, ram it with a third T-34)
  
• You need to clear out its AT support.
  
• You need to clear out every snaring infantry squad nearby, because one snare will completely neuter a tank.

I think the biggest impact is likely to be the threat of it. It's still going to be almost impossible to kill a supported heavy tank with mediums (or a supported medium tank with lights) but an unsupported heavier tank marauding around the enemy backline with no support is in danger.

The T-34 just needs a buff, maybe a price increase, but a buff: a smoke shell definitely (like Cromwell), a bit of a main gun penetration, a new veteran ability. Think fire and maneuver will be the best option -
increase speed and turret rotation speed, because T-34 is undermined for a flank maneuver which he cannot.

According to coh2db/com/stats, elefant has 110 rear armor. The centaur would land 1/3rd of its shots if it got behind it.

I know, I know, "if you got flanked you're already dead and...." but just playing it out in my head.

Behind it at point blank range.

You've also got to consider the damage output of these anti-infantry vehicles: they're crazy powerful against 80 HP infantry models.

Even if a Centaur has 100% penetration against an Elefant, that Elefant is still a massive health brick.

If any modder is interested in making a test mod for this I don't mind calculating all the value changes.

I like the idea, but I would only apply it to LVs (Puma, Luchs, 222, T70, AEC, M5, etc.).

Applying it to every tank would result in this:

No. This would too heavily favor high HP, high mobility vehicles, and make tank combat even more silly than it already is in this game.

You'd basically end up with M36s rushing everything and basically ignoring armor due to their mobility. Right now, panthers, etc. can sort of hold their own against M36s because their armor still works at close range; this would remove that advantage, too.

Do I hear another M10 buff?

No. This would too heavily favor high HP, high mobility vehicles, and make tank combat even more silly than it already is in this game.

This would favor the ez8 sherman 76 mech, sov 76 LL, possibly even t-34 and comet is a great thing! Currently they have no place because they are utility tanks that dont do anything well to be honest. T34-85 might be the one exceptlion it is pretty strong currently. This would make those tanks viable again, right now they just are not, easier to go heavy AI infantry with jacksons or su85. Axis fans wont like this of course making there super rule the world tanks vulnerable. this would make well played medium flanks a thing again, now the only flanks they do is get snared and die, meanwhile they cant go tow to toe with any axis tank either and there AI is complete shit for 76mech (switching rounds), ez8, cromwell and comet.

I like the idea, but I would only apply it to LVs (Puma, Luchs, 222, T70, AEC, M5, etc.).

Applying it to every tank would result in this:


You'd basically end up with M36s rushing everything and basically ignoring armor due to their mobility. Right now, panthers, etc. can sort of hold their own against M36s because their armor still works at close range; this would remove that advantage, too.

wow you just described what the panther does every game now, and thats not what would happen because of snares, hp differences etc.

You'd basically end up with M36s rushing everything and basically ignoring armor due to their mobility. Right now, panthers, etc. can sort of hold their own against M36s because their armor still works at close range; this would remove that advantage, too.

I disagree. The Panther wins close up because it has extra health, not armour. The Jackson already penetrates it frontally no problem.

Tank Point Blank provides an option to vehicles that struggle to penetrate heavier armour. It's a pointless risk on units that can already penetrate from range.

The vehicle I'd be concerned about is the M10, and it's not like you can't adjust it if point blank makes it too strong.

I disagree. The Panther wins close up because it has extra health, not armour. The Jackson already penetrates it frontally no problem.

Tank Point Blank provides an option to vehicles that struggle to penetrate heavier armour. It's a pointless risk on units that can already penetrate from range.

The vehicle I'd be concerned about is the M10, and it's not like you can't adjust it if point blank makes it too strong.

Played a game yesterday and jackson money rounds were bouncing panther frontally, that makes sense dosent it.


Look you proved my point yourself vehicles that struggle to penetrate heavy armor, like allied mediums that have become useless, soviet sherman76, sherman ez8, mech sherman 76, comet, cromwell. Yes because im going to swarm you with m10s around your invisble at guns, shreks, snares, paks lmao that even if they did pen probably cannot take down the health pool of any axis tanks above p4 before they are destroyed, even if they do almost guaranteed they will not make it back out.

And all those vehicles have no problem penetrating from range do they when axis tanks can bounce jackson money rounds ok


EDIT AHH i see what your saying it would be a pointless risk for axis vehicles that have no problem penetrating paper allied vehicles from range. it ok that my tanks cant penetrate from range though and still struggle to pen axis tanks when they are in there face behind enemy lines and should not get any compensation for risk, well played flanks, and give them a use again.

Played a game yesterday and jackson money rounds were bouncing panther frontally, that makes sense dosent it.

The maximum chance for a Vet 1 Jackson HVAP round to bounce off a Vet 2 Panther (ie: one with skirts) is 12.6%. Without the skirts, that chance is 3.8%.

Possible? Yes.

Probable? No.

Once the Jackson gets its veterancy penetration bonus, it's guaranteed to penetrate any Panther at any range with basic rounds.

The maximum chance for a Vet 1 Jackson HVAP round to bounce off a Vet 2 Panther (ie: one with skirts) is 12.6%. Without the skirts, that chance is 3.8%.

Possible? Yes.

Probable? No.

Once the Jackson gets its veterancy penetration bonus, it's guaranteed to penetrate any Panther at any range with basic rounds.

Whats the chance with a vet 0 jackson to pen a panther with money rounds

it would need to buff some heavy tank armor accordingly tho

Whats the chance with a vet 0 jackson to pen a panther with money rounds

Zero. They're a Vet 1 ability.

it would need to buff some heavy tank armor accordingly tho

Heavies just require support. One snare squad is all it takes to keep an enemy tank out of point blank range.