For the Love Of God M1 Pack Howitzer

Right... so why not we lobby to change the map? I mean, do whatever with the pack-howitzer (I am not a fan of auto-attacking indirect units anyway), but it seems that the problem will exist regardless.

I mean I hate the map, but it's one of the beloved tourney maps and for the most part it isn't too bad. It's just a thin map. It's still leagues ahead of maps like arnhem checkpoint with 15 stone garrisons

Have you even used the mortar against mg42?
Like I see people regurgitate this, and just can't tell if they're playing the same game

I do. As a matter of fact it's always in my BO against Ost because I KNOW they are long range, static force (except Pgrens, who are easily zoned when unsupported) and quick smoke is absolutely irreplacible at taking aways OSTs strengths. It doesn't do so well against okw but hey they are designed to not have weaknesses so that's not really a good metric.

I'd like to see a replay where you build an early mortar to smoke counter a HMG.42 and win where your opponent isn't simply too bad.

one mortar = one less combat unit on the field vs Ostheer which today's usual BO is 4xgren or 2xAssgren or 4min Pzgren.

USF early game is already short of one squad for some time until you unlock your first officer, even with 3xRM start. So i'm curious on how you can integrate a mortar that has close to zero damage output so early in your BO and also reduce your capping power.

I personally see the mortar only being useful after lieutenant tier unlock if you need some smoke launcher and you already unlocked M20/Stuart and want to rush sherman.

I'd like to see a replay where you build an early mortar to smoke counter a HMG.42 and win where your opponent isn't simply too bad.

one mortar = one less combat unit on the field vs Ostheer which today's usual BO is 4xgren or 2xAssgren or 4min Pzgren.

USF early game is already short of one squad for some time until you unlock your first officer, even with 3xRM start. So i'm curious on how you can integrate a mortar that has close to zero damage output so early in your BO and also reduce your capping power.

I personally see the mortar only being useful after lieutenant tier unlock if you need some smoke launcher and you already unlocked M20/Stuart and want to rush sherman.

This is my experience too, but I suspect he's either remembering things from a different patch and mixing it up or simply playing a different place on the ladder.

Frankly I'd get another rare echelon and use the new grenade launcher before I use the t0 mortar

225 replies. Well done! You are on to something!

I'll try to keep this as beneficial to all of us as possible, and I will attempt a well thoughtout, honest but constructive reply in hopes on conveying information that will help us all.

your criticism on the Pak howitser encompasses the following

• Its accuracy is way too high
  
• ridiculous AOE
  
• damage profile
  
  

Your final remark was

2 M1 paks will squad wipe everything with zero input from the player building it.

Saying something is wrong without offering a proposed fix makes it hard to fully understand what you are trying to achieve here. LI hope you want a constructive discussion about this unit but it seems to me you aren't fully committed to being constructive to begin with. Judging your other replies conveys to me you are more emotionally than logically invested in this matter.

I fully disagree with your entire statement. I will list here as unbiased as possible why I disagree.

Its accuracy is way too high

I somewhat can understand why you would feel this way, The unit does have more accuracy than any other allied mortar counterpart. But going for pak howitsers is a very risky investment for any player involved. The resource drain into going for them is high and it prevents a USF player from giving himself any freedom unit wise. Going pak howitsers can be considered close to an "all-in" It either works or you get rolled over. There seems little middle ground from my experiences.

ridiculous AOE

Simply untrue. It has a huge spread, not AOE. there is a difference. If i play a game as USF and see my opponents trending towards turtling, blobbing or amassing units then the choice becomes clear, A turtling blobber can expect to be pack howie'd. Why? Because I know you will just turtle and amass units which makes this a good choice. any agressive player or non blobber kills my pack howitsers easily which makes it a very bad (game losing) choice.

damage profile

I do not know what you exactly mean by this. It does too much damage I assume? I am willing to bet a fair amount that you have been blobbing and you got treated with some pak howitser shots that effectively countered your blob. Regarding the investment both in choice and locking out other tech it seems more than fine to me.

2 M1 paks will squad wipe everything with zero input from the player building it.

Simply untrue, as i said earlier the investment in tech and manpower makes it close to a "all in" decision which gives you a unit that is quite easily countered by axis (being more agressive with units, Stuka zu fuss, raketenwerfer, less blob-turtling.

In hopes of you reading this and replying in a similar fashion I wish you a good day, sir.

225 replies. Well done! You are on to something!

I'll try to keep this as beneficial to all of us as possible, and I will attempt a well thoughtout, honest but constructive reply in hopes on conveying information that will help us all.

your criticism on the Pak howitser encompasses the following

• Its accuracy is way too high
  
• ridiculous AOE
  
• damage profile
  
  

I somewhat can understand why you would feel this way, The unit does have more accuracy than any other allied mortar counterpart. But going for pak howitsers is a very risky investment for any player involved. The resource drain into going for them is high and it prevents a USF player from giving himself any freedom unit wise. Going pak howitsers can be considered close to an "all-in" It either works or you get rolled over. There seems little middle ground from my experiences.



Simply untrue. It has a huge spread, not AOE. there is a difference. If i play a game as USF and see my opponents trending towards turtling, blobbing or amassing units then the choice becomes clear, A turtling blobber can expect to be pack howie'd. Why? Because I know you will just turtle and amass units which makes this a good choice. any agressive player or non blobber kills my pack howitsers easily which makes it a very bad (game losing) choice.


I do not know what you exactly mean by this. It does too much damage I assume? I am willing to bet a fair amount that you have been blobbing and you got treated with some pak howitser shots that effectively countered your blob. Regarding the investment both in choice and locking out other tech it seems more than fine to me.

When he is referring to the AOE he is referring to the aoe blast of each shell. The pack howitzer has 25% larger aoe radius than any other non doc infantry based indirect fire platform. Most mortars and the leig 18 have an aoe explosion radius of 4meters. The pack howitzer has 5 but that is only half of the story.

When he was referring to the damage profile he was talking about how the shells damage is distributed within its aoe radius. Standard mortars have 50% reduced damage once you reach 1.5meters from the center of the blast(leig has it reduced by 60%). The pack howitzer does 50% reduced damage at 3 meters(twice the distance of standard indirect fire) from the blast. This means you can two shot infantry squads even if both are near misses.

The only comparable weapon in terms of damage profile and aoe is the soviet 120mm mortar which is doctrinal and has a substantially reduced rate of fire compared to the pack howitzer.



That said, I am not convinced the pack howitzer needs a nerf- and actually I think the inability to retreat and tendency for the weapon crew to clump up make it a weapon team that is extremely easy to de-crew with a grenade, lucky tank shot or even small arms fire. I wouldn't mind seeing a buff to its crew durability because it is so easy to lose them.

Simply untrue. It has a huge spread, not AOE.

For the record, the Pack Howitzer's AOE as a whole is way higher than a regular mortar. If the spread is larger, then damage distribution is higher too (even if max damage is the same).

Cruzz standardized AOE score says
M1 Pack Howitzer AOE: 39.756
GrW 34 AOE: 17.678
leIG ISG AOE: 16.711

The AOE radius is 20% larger, and all AOE distances are 50% larger. On top of that, the scatter on the Pack Howie is considerably better than any mortar's, so it's even more likely to hit with that larger AOE too.


I would personally agree that the autofire AOE is actually borderline ridiculous.

For the record, the Pack Howitzer's AOE as a whole is way higher than a regular mortar. If the spread is larger, then damage distribution is higher too (even if max damage is the same).

Cruzz standardized AOE score says
M1 Pack Howitzer AOE: 39.756
GrW 34 AOE: 17.678
leIG ISG AOE: 16.711

The AOE radius is 20% larger, and all AOE distances are 50% larger. On top of that, the scatter on the Pack Howie is considerably better than any mortar's, so it's even more likely to hit with that larger AOE too.

for the record this is not mortar or cheap dirt leig
one thing i'm sure about we dont need next mortar in usf
so nerf as many have said its a bad idea
leave it or rework
only two options

dirt cheap LeIG -> Costs more than any nondoc mortar and is only 70MP less than pakhowi. K

Someone explain to me why the LeIG has worse reload, significantly worse AoE damage, AND costs more, takes more popcap and can't retreat like standard mortars? No wonder I always thought it was trash tier, IT IS trash tier. I didn't even mention the awful vet either.

Someone explain to me why the LeIG has worse reload, significantly worse AoE damage, AND costs more, takes more popcap and can't retreat like standard mortars? No wonder I always thought it was trash tier, IT IS trash tier. I didn't even mention the awful vet either.

Compared to the GrW 34, it has better reload on both autofire (8.925s vs 10.625s) as well as barrage (5.075s vs 5.5s) as well as significantly better scatter (6 vs 10 scatter angle and 5 vs 8 distance max) while having only slightly worse AOE (Cruzz rating of 16.711 vs ~17.8). The crew target size is also 1.0 instead of 1.25 for the standard mortar crew. It can fire smoke much further than regular mortars. It's actually pretty damn good now that its AOE and veterancy have been largely fixed, especially versus Brits.

Compared to the GrW 34, it has better reload on both autofire (8.925s vs 10.625s) as well as barrage (5.075s vs 5.5s) as well as significantly better scatter (6 vs 10 scatter angle and 5 vs 8 distance max) while having only slightly worse AOE (16.711 vs ~17.8). The crew target size is also 1.0 instead of 1.25 for the standard mortar crew.

Reload ISG: 6.5/7.1
Reload GrW34: 6

Scatter yes, but scatter isn't neccesarily always better. It makes it more accurate vs stationary targets but when a target moves scatter shots can extend farther off the AoE giving RNG chances to hit higher.

AoE distance ISG: 0.75/1.5/2.25
AoE distance GrW34: 1/2/3

Radius both: 4

So the ISG reaches its minimum AoE damage far faster than a mortar.

Crew may be harder to hit, but it also cannot retreat as a tradeoff.

It still costs more than any mortar, has worse vet IIRC, takes more popcap, and is straight up laughable compared to the pakhowi at only 70MP less. Like seriously, the pak howi has a radius of 5 with AoE blast of 1.5/3/4.5 on its autoattack. It's rediculous. Double the damage distance than the ISG for 70MP more and only on 8popcap? Sign me up!

It still costs more than any mortar, has worse vet IIRC, takes more popcap, and is straight up laughable compared to the pakhowi at only 70MP less.

The Pak howy is probably OP, but it should still be a lot better than the Leig. Idk when 70mp difference in units became small

Idk why you're bringing up that it costs more than other mortars if you trying to say the 70mp difference with m1 shouldn't mean that much. Its 30 more than other mortsrs

The Pak howy is probably OP, but it should still be a lot better than the Leig. Idk when 70mp difference in units became small, but volks and conscripts differ quite a bit over 10

I mean pgrens should dumpster every baseline infantry except MAYBE penals then right? And I mean dumpster. Zero chance for sections to win vs pgrens. But that's the problem, there's a major consistancy issue of resources ingame. For example, rangers are now 350 (for some reason) but pgrens at 340 get rolled by them and don't scale even close to rangers. Falls are one of the most expensive units ingame and are squishier than butter. KT is the most expensive unit ingame and considered to be the worst heavy ingame. There's consistancy issues all over. The LeIG is just one of the few.

Reload ISG: 6.5/7.1
Reload GrW34: 6

Total reload is more than just the raw reload. There's also wind up and wind down times.
The real reloads are the ones I posted. You can find these by clicking on the weapon in Cruzz' spreadsheets and hovering your mouse over the dot in the graph.

I mean pgrens should dumpster every baseline infantry except MAYBE penals then right? And I mean dumpster. Zero chance for sections to win vs pgrens.

The Leig has zero chance to win against pak howy? I forced one to back off just yesterday with a regular German mortar barrage...

The Leig has zero chance to win against pak howy? I forced one to back off just yesterday with a regular German mortar barrage...

Well cons aren't exactly lining up to win vs volks at 10mp more. And sections roll volks at 30mp more. so yeah, I'd say there's a resource issue.

Well cons aren't exactly lining up to win vs volks at 10mp more. And sections roll volks at 30mp more. so yeah, I'd say there's a resource issue.

Oh I mean there's definitely a resource issue. But the whole game has issues there, it's not confined to pak and leig like you say

LeiGs in team games are extremely good. People may fixate on the AOE but disregard it's accuracy and ability to pick off individual models, not to mention its synergy with the IR halftrack.

It's weird to see someone say "x unit is trash" when it's in constant use in games.

I guess I have to remind myself some people only play 1v1.

LeiGs in team games are extremely good. People may fixate on the AOE but disregard it's accuracy and ability to pick off individual models, not to mention its synergy with the IR halftrack.

It's weird to see someone say "x unit is trash" when it's in constant use in games.

I guess I have to remind myself some people only play 1v1.

Or its used because its the only indirect piece OKW has outside of a walking stuka? And combined arms is a core concept of CoH2 let alone war? I share your shock that people use the pack howi in both teamgames AND 1v1 yet people still defend it like its the only piece of indirect USF have, except they have the most of any faction....

Or its used because its the only indirect piece OKW has outside of a walking stuka? And combined arms is a core concept of CoH2 let alone war? I share your shock that people use the pack howi in both teamgames AND 1v1 yet people still defend it like its the only piece of indirect USF have, except they have the most of any faction....

They sure do, and I hate having a USF team-mate who only goes indirect and never bothers to use their wonderful infantry, 50 cals, or jacksons. But USF being busted doesn't mean that the LeiG is trash no matter how you put it.

And while "combined arms" is available to all, a map-hack with great range that gives you clear idea of where to target your longer-range-than-other-mortars ISG is particularly unique to OKW. It's great synergy, going beyond "combined arms" in a general sense and to a specific function.

I guess you can argue soviets can do something with flares but I'd take ISG + IR Halftrack over 2 soviet mortars any day. Soviets also "only" have the mortar outside rocket arty... but that's true for basically every army.

And my real _shock_ is how you are otherwise reasonable but use hyperbolic language like "this unit is trash" when it very much isn't and it's used a lot in team games to great effect.

Unrelated, why exactly was USF given mortar in t0? Was it because smoke-nades got removed from riflemen?

If that is true, then originally USF only had 2 indirect platforms too -- pack and scott.

I can't keep up with all the changes anymore =(