Ostheer T2 Skip

It doesn't remove a risk of skipping, it just make you safe from brainless rush with LV like stuart ot T70 which caused a lot of mass-retreats before the patch.
Schreks as well as zooks are quite innacurate, especially on max range, and their range is lower than range of LVs main guns.
With the same logic you can call tellermines existance without T2 as "bad design".

It doesn't remove the threat from skipping, just makes the you safe from the thing that punished skipping.... got it.

Shreks unlike zooks however require an entire shot less to kill a light meaning a single squad and some good RNG can end a light in only 2 volleys. Also I'm not sure why you are now making them out to be ineffective when just a sentence ago you said they make you safe from LVs. If they don't like you claim then there is no reason locking them behind the tech will make a difference, but if they do, also like you claim, then it makes skipping t2 viable and without risk.

And here we are with further conflicting claims. Previously the short range and inaccuracy was an issue that made the Shreks unreliable but now a range and accuracy of "the enemy quite literally has to come to IT and touch it" is comparable.

I'm starting to think you are simply grasping at straws here....

All but brits are supposed to miss out on something by skipping tiers (cause brits are entirely linear, although they can miss out via side techs) pgren Shreks negate that design philosophy. Previously the skip carried the risk of being carried off field by LVs, that threat is now gone and calling it t2 skip isnt really an appropriate name as it has made t2 an optional tier entirely. You are not skipping t2 by going from 1 to 3,you are instead side teching for t2 in the same way the Soviet might by going t1 to t2. Except without giving up any real unit as Shreks are as scary as an AT gun due to burst potential where ptrs are more defensive in nature.

Just put assgrens on initial cooldown, lock panzershrecks for pgren behind T2 and/or BP3 and at best increase ostwinds price by 10 fuel.

Yea IMO all cp0 infantry should be on cooldown. I feel like ass engies arent? Probably should be if everything else is getting the switch

The problem with locking shreks behind T2 is that it makes the new position of PGrens almost entirely pointless. Right now, they're in an interesting position, where they can allow for a somewhat possible T2 skip. It's NOT risk free; you lose your long-range AT (good luck vs AA-HTs), as well as any ability to chase LVs (no 222). In exchange you save 200mp/20f, which allows for T3 maybe 90 seconds earlier in a normal game (provided we're fuel-limited).

If shreks are moved to behind T2, all that the Pgren change has done is allow for PGrens to be built 200mp/20f earlier (30 seconds? maybe?) - which isn't very interesting or useful. You'd still be forced to build T2, since there's no way you can stall until ~8-10min with zero AT power.

Right now, I really don't see this as a huge problem. The crazy T1/T2 skips we're seeing these days only work because they're new and unexpected; they're actually really risky.

That said, the sub-15 minute Tiger Ace is crazy; not sure why it's not point-locked.

The problem with locking shreks behind T2 is that it makes the new position of PGrens almost entirely pointless. Right now, they're in an interesting position, where they can allow for a somewhat possible T2 skip. It's NOT risk free; you lose your long-range AT (good luck vs AA-HTs), as well as any ability to chase LVs (no 222). In exchange you save 200mp/20f, which allows for T3 maybe 90 seconds earlier in a normal game (provided we're fuel-limited).

If shreks are moved to behind T2, all that the Pgren change has done is allow for PGrens to be built 200mp/20f earlier (30 seconds? maybe?) - which isn't very interesting or useful. You'd still be forced to build T2, since there's no way you can stall until ~8-10min with zero AT power.

Right now, I really don't see this as a huge problem. The crazy T1/T2 skips we're seeing these days only work because they're new and unexpected; they're actually really risky.

That said, the sub-15 minute Tiger Ace is crazy; not sure why it's not point-locked.

If it's only a 30 second delay anyways then there is no issue in having it tied.

If it's only a 30 second delay anyways then there is no issue in having it tied.

It's only a 30second delay for Pgrens to hit the field; not a 30sec overall tech delay. It's more like 90-120s if you build nothing involving fuel, and don't MP-block yourself.

It doesn't remove the threat from skipping, just makes the you safe from the thing that punished skipping.... got it.

Shreks unlike zooks however require an entire shot less to kill a light meaning a single squad and some good RNG can end a light in only 2 volleys. Also I'm not sure why you are now making them out to be ineffective when just a sentence ago you said they make you safe from LVs. If they don't like you claim then there is no reason locking them behind the tech will make a difference, but if they do, also like you claim, then it makes skipping t2 viable and without risk.

And here we are with further conflicting claims. Previously the short range and inaccuracy was an issue that made the Shreks unreliable but now a range and accuracy of "the enemy quite literally has to come to IT and touch it" is comparable.

I'm starting to think you are simply grasping at straws here....

All but brits are supposed to miss out on something by skipping tiers (cause brits are entirely linear, although they can miss out via side techs) pgren Shreks negate that design philosophy. Previously the skip carried the risk of being carried off field by LVs, that threat is now gone and calling it t2 skip isnt really an appropriate name as it has made t2 an optional tier entirely. You are not skipping t2 by going from 1 to 3,you are instead side teching for t2 in the same way the Soviet might by going t1 to t2. Except without giving up any real unit as Shreks are as scary as an AT gun due to burst potential where ptrs are more defensive in nature.

Causable mass-retreat for building stuff, which fitted less resources than it's counter was what you called "bad design". No faction need to have game closers and that's why lelic nerfed OKW Luchs production speed. As well, PTRS could counter LVs better than schreks just because of accuracy.
When you start your "all but brits" thing here you totally forget, that "all but ostheer" have creepy LV, which is bulletproof (AEC is don't, but only from rear, if I remember) and has great potential in AI and anti-LV duty (AEC is more anti-lv, but old ostheers tech gave it an opportunity not to be totally useless in AI). Does non-existence of ostheer luchs should mean that it should be easy to play against ostheer with LVs?
Your speaking of panzerschreck-potentiality is irrelevant, because you cannot discuss about high RNG issues, because if you will continue that way, we should again look and T70 and get it rid of it's highly potential main gun.
While you are starting to think about straws or whatever your try to say about me personally, I can easily see with your speech, that you are just another guy, who is trying to sneak own fanboyism under some conservative points about new design of old faction which had lowest 1v1 rate before the patch and want changes, which will cause it again be like this.

Causable mass-retreat for building stuff, which fitted less resources than it's counter was what you called "bad design". No faction need to have game closers and that's why lelic nerfed OKW Luchs production speed. As well, PTRS could counter LVs better than schreks just because of accuracy.
When you start your "all but brits" thing here you totally forget, that "all but ostheer" have creepy LV, which is bulletproof (AEC is don't, but only from rear, if I remember) and has great potential in AI and anti-LV duty (AEC is more anti-lv, but old ostheers tech gave it an opportunity not to be totally useless in AI). Does non-existence of ostheer luchs should mean that it should be easy to play against ostheer with LVs?
Your speaking of panzerschreck-potentiality is irrelevant, because you cannot discuss about high RNG issues, because if you will continue that way, we should again look and T70 and get it rid of it's highly potential main gun.
While you are starting to think about straws or whatever your try to say about me personally, I can easily see with your speech, that you are just another guy, who is trying to sneak own fanboyism under some conservative points about new design of old faction which had lowest 1v1 rate before the patch and want changes, which will cause it again be like this.

Burst potential is what counters vehicles best. Ptrs will deal as much damage as a zook on each volley, but that leaves ample time to retreat. Should patching strike at most you will receive another 80 damage, the Shrek combo can easily exploit that patching into a dead LV. 200mp and 20 fuel are not going to magically make lvs run rampant, especially not after earlier pgrens give Ost a bit more pushing power.

Ost doesn't have a light tank, this is true. That doesn't mean that nobody else should either. Strong AI into easy LZ counter is bad design. Ptrs penals are also bad design (before you get all upity about them) and Ost was designed with a natural "each having the lead them falling behind" arms race timing. It's intended. They don't have a light tank, they instead have decent lights a bit sooner to counter the mobile transport vehicles that they also don't have but other factions have. Additionally they have a hell of a high impact FHT should they chose. They don't have a light tank but they are not helpless by any means. And it's designed that way.... Intentionally.... As in on purpose!

Shrek potential isn't irrelevant when we are literally talking about the power that being able to utilize it without teching is. The power of the T70 is the same that it has been for a very long time, only now Ost can bite a bit before the T70 hits the field without spending fuel. They shouldn't however be able to provide a quick counter to it without paying for such. T70 costs more fuel alone than Ost spends teching the counters, let alone its own tech costs and absolutely should warrant teching up to the proper counters. Not them being gifted so you can get medium armour 20% faster.

And actually, I play all factions, vanilla factions most of all which affords me the pleasure of understanding the interworkings of each faction. Furthermore having played since the beta and for more hours than I'd like to admit I'm familiar with the design intentions of each factions and aim to stay true to them with balance discussions. Giving any faction the ability to- for minimal risk- skip tech is a horrible idea which is only amplified by the current ability to literally turn that advantage (of risk free tech skipping) into a Shockwave of shock units culminating in a fast heavy tank.
20 fuel and 200mp might not seem much but timing of units is based on that and being able to skip over it and still be able to counter everything that comes your way (did you know a Shrek can pen every allied stock vehicle frontally from max range with the exception of brit comet and churchills?) is bad design and changes the tier from "skipping it" to get faster armour to "delaying your mediums" to get what shouldn't be a fully optional building.

Giving units abilities in the late game is a real buff. Was 7 man conscripts not a buff?

I'm not here to debate words, just please stop being so biased. Someone asks for minor ost nerfs, you say close the thread. That's not a fair reaction under any circumstances

You speak about DPS buffs, I speak about passive abilities to improve their role.

Someone cries and want to hard-nerf Ostwind, you are biased, because you don't debate words in the other thread. Maybe you didn't read everything, than it is even more bias.

There is another option.

PG could be moved back to T2 but T2 could have BP1 research request removed.

It could then give access to unit like PG and 221 or even Pak with 222 and FHT locked behind BP1.

One could change tech even more and bring them closer to soviet moving MH42 to T1 and grenadier to T0.

Or one can simply stop messing with the timing of units, and simply stop the access to early powerful units.

Then one can use mainline infatry for timing of infatry, armored cars as the timing of vehicles and so on, leaving enough time for each stage of the game for these units to become worth building.

Thing is, pgrens used to have that capability. I know it was a different balance back then but they were bundled to make it a hard decision and I really really think that getting AT infantry SHOULD be a hard decision.they are highly mobile and can also be outfitted with camo and sprint, being able to retain some AI and also deter armour would be too "easy" choices are good

The reason why it is a hard decision is grounded, but I think the game changed so much, that it would maybe would be one way to low down their early AT damage. And it would force you to build T2 to get a 2nd Schreck.

It would be a try we have to test.


Beside, they also have to fix the Faust requirement, it needs T1, that is fine. But if it gets destroyed you will lose the Faust. -> Arty-cancer.

...

You mean like Soviets early?

That would also be a solution.


Edit: For me HMGs arrive too early, same for bullet-proved vehicles (T70, AEC, Stuart), also Clown-Car arrives too early or is still broken versus OKW.

-> I don't understand why some non-doc units don'T get CP needing. Or weapon limits with teching, so you can't spam HMGs etc.

Edit: e.g. Ostheer:

T0:
- Pios (no limit)
- HMG42 (T0 1*limit, T2 3*limit)
- PnzGr (T2-tech 1*limit, T2 3*limit)


- But I also think that the line-up has to be changed more. HMGs should arrive WAY later, heavy supression platforms (HMG42) should be arrive later (like 50.) etc.

- Faust etc. needs to be special, but arrive later. Give them a weaker AT in early.

Edit: For me HMGs arrive too early, same for bullet-proved vehicles (T70, AEC, Stuart), also Clown-Car arrives too early or is still broken versus OKW.

-> I don't understand why some non-doc units don'T get CP needing. Or weapon limits with teching, so you can't spam HMGs etc.

Edit: e.g. Ostheer:

T0:
- Pios (no limit)
- HMG42 (T0 1*limit, T2 3*limit)
- PnzGr (T2-tech 1*limit, T2 3*limit)


- But I also think that the line-up has to be changed more. HMGs should arrive WAY later, heavy supression platforms (HMG42) should be arrive later (like 50.) etc.

- Faust etc. needs to be special, but arrive later. Give them a weaker AT in early.

Restriction mechanics only should work to powerfull units like heavy tanks. Every decent player know how to deal with hmg spam - snipers, clowncars, mortar smoke. Problem with T2 skipping not in HMG spam, but in combo 3 Mg-42+early PGrens with shrecks+early Ostwind. Such 9:30-10 minutes combo very hard to counter.

Restriction mechanics only should work to powerfull units like heavy tanks. Every decent player know how to deal with hmg spam - snipers, clowncars, mortar smoke. Problem with T2 skipping not in HMG spam, but in combo 3 Mg-42+early PGrens with shrecks+early Ostwind. Such 9:30-10 minutes combo very hard to counter.

Only because I wrote about Ostheer mechanics, didn't say that there aren't other fraction with line-up bias.

-> e.g. Maxims

It is not the T2 skip making the game stupid, there are multible problems. Making an extra thread for everything is useless.

Burst potential is what counters vehicles best. Ptrs will deal as much damage as a zook on each volley, but that leaves ample time to retreat. Should patching strike at most you will receive another 80 damage, the Shrek combo can easily exploit that patching into a dead LV. 200mp and 20 fuel are not going to magically make lvs run rampant, especially not after earlier pgrens give Ost a bit more pushing power.

Ost doesn't have a light tank, this is true. That doesn't mean that nobody else should either. Strong AI into easy LZ counter is bad design. Ptrs penals are also bad design (before you get all upity about them) and Ost was designed with a natural "each having the lead them falling behind" arms race timing. It's intended. They don't have a light tank, they instead have decent lights a bit sooner to counter the mobile transport vehicles that they also don't have but other factions have. Additionally they have a hell of a high impact FHT should they chose. They don't have a light tank but they are not helpless by any means. And it's designed that way.... Intentionally.... As in on purpose!

Shrek potential isn't irrelevant when we are literally talking about the power that being able to utilize it without teching is. The power of the T70 is the same that it has been for a very long time, only now Ost can bite a bit before the T70 hits the field without spending fuel. They shouldn't however be able to provide a quick counter to it without paying for such. T70 costs more fuel alone than Ost spends teching the counters, let alone its own tech costs and absolutely should warrant teching up to the proper counters. Not them being gifted so you can get medium armour 20% faster.

And actually, I play all factions, vanilla factions most of all which affords me the pleasure of understanding the interworkings of each faction. Furthermore having played since the beta and for more hours than I'd like to admit I'm familiar with the design intentions of each factions and aim to stay true to them with balance discussions. Giving any faction the ability to- for minimal risk- skip tech is a horrible idea which is only amplified by the current ability to literally turn that advantage (of risk free tech skipping) into a Shockwave of shock units culminating in a fast heavy tank.
20 fuel and 200mp might not seem much but timing of units is based on that and being able to skip over it and still be able to counter everything that comes your way (did you know a Shrek can pen every allied stock vehicle frontally from max range with the exception of brit comet and churchills?) is bad design and changes the tier from "skipping it" to get faster armour to "delaying your mediums" to get what shouldn't be a fully optional building.

"PTRS penals are badly designed, Pgren pshreks also. Let's remove/make harder to get pgren pshreks. No, I am not allied fanboy, who is trying look competitive".
I hope, that our conversation is over. In this game fanboyism, I guess, is the most disgusting thing.

"PTRS penals are badly designed, Pgren pshreks also. Let's remove/make harder to get pgren pshreks. No, I am not allied fanboy, who is trying look competitive".
I hope, that our conversation is over. In this game fanboyism, I guess, is the most disgusting thing.

Not thar I give half a shit what you think, in my many posts on this forum there is evidence of me fighting for all factions, also against certain traits . Say was you will but I'm nothing if ny constant in my assertion that strong AI followed by AT is a serious design flaw you likley could search my post history and see me arguing against the PTRS penals on many occasions. I don't play competitively and I don't try andv hide that I play for the enjoyment of the game. Being around for more than 30 some odd post and understanding the stances of whom you are accusing is advisable as opposed to "this person disagrees with me thus they are some sort of fanboy" it will at least at credibility to your claims if you have the slightest bit of knowledge as to what you are claiming to be true. If you so wish for our discussion to be done so be it s no skin off my teeth. Won't quote you on this thread any further as it's clear that you havefvno desire for anything but baseless claims and I expect you to follow suit.

Someone cries and want to hard-nerf Ostwind, you are biased, because you don't debate words in the other thread. Maybe you didn't read everything, than it is even more bias.

Are you blind? I posted in that thread a ton, mostly defending the buffs... What are you talking about

Are you blind? I posted in that thread a ton, mostly defending the buffs... What are you talking about

How is speaking about you?

After thinking about it, I'd agree moving a chunk of the cost from the T2 building to T2 tech is the best way to nerf T3 rush. Think something like 80-100 manpower.

I don't like the idea of locking Schrecks behind the T2 building (altough I've suggested this in the testing phase). Giving Ostheer a stock AT option outside of T2 has given them a lot of doctrinal options that were previously unviable (lmg gren 250 would be a good example, I'd never get that if I could go 222, but with pgrens to act as AT, it suddenly becomes interesting).

After thinking about it, I'd agree moving a chunk of the cost from the T2 building to T2 tech is the best way to nerf T3 rush. Think something like 80-100 manpower.

I don't like the idea of locking Schrecks behind the T2 building (altough I've suggested this in the testing phase). Giving Ostheer a stock AT option outside of T2 has given them a lot of doctrinal options that were previously unviable (lmg gren 250 would be a good example, I'd never get that if I could go 222, but with pgrens to act as AT, it suddenly becomes interesting).

That's because the 250 HT is insanely good value if T2 isn't needed.

400 MP, 90 MU, 50 FU for a 251 Flamer.

410 MP, 60 MU, 20 FU for a 250 and a Flame Pio to put in it.

That's because the 250 HT is insanely good value if T2 isn't needed.

400 MP, 90 MU, 50 FU for a 251 Flamer.

410 MP, 60 MU, 20 FU for a 250 and a Flame Pio to put in it.

Talking about the 250 in German Mechanized, which is less good value because it comes later and gives you a Grenadier (of which you should have plenty at 2 CP). Previously, with T2 it would be too high of a manpower invesment to get and without T2 you'd be completely open to light vehicle rushes. Now, with Shrecked Pgrens as option, it suddenly became a good option.

You should also look at those costs holistically, almost no one makes T2 for a single vehicle. You more often see 2 light vehicles and a pak.