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Ostheer T2 Skip

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24 Jun 2019, 22:22 PM
#81
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

It is not 400 MP and 30 fuel.

It is 200MP and 30 fuel. It is somewhat worth it. Considering also its timing.


I'll try to explain this again.

If you want to build 222, you need to build T2 (200 MP 20 FU) and then build the 222 (200 MP 30 FU). That's 400 MP 50 FU.

If you don't build a 222, you don't have to build T2 any more.

Therefore, the difference in price between building the 222 and not building the 222 is 400 MP 50 FU.
24 Jun 2019, 22:22 PM
#82
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jun 2019, 21:40 PMLago


I would personally prefer Ostheer didn't have nondoc AT weapons if they skip T2. The previous dynamic worked fairly well and I don't think introducing this skip is to the benefit of the faction design.

PGrens in T0 are cool, but Panzerschrecks in T0 undermines the balance on which T2 was priced. Either that balance needs to be restored or T2 needs to be repriced to reflect it's new, reduced value.

Failing that, I'd like to see some action taken to better balance teching T2 against skipping T2. The current dynamic heavily rewards skipping T2. T2 becoming off-meta would be a great shame given how good a tier design it is.


Pzshrek upgrade should become available either when T2 is built or when Battle Phase 2 is researched.

In that way, you must build the base at some point!

Maybe that is a balanced solution. Locking upgrade behind tech or base!
24 Jun 2019, 22:23 PM
#83
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I think tieing the Shreks to t2 is a good choice. Making the tier redundant is bad design and osts tech design is SUPPOSED ATO BE about each thing (building or tech) giving you things. Pgrens available earlier is a good change, but there should be some balancing factor for that. Otherwise it's just as much of a no Brainer as ptrs penals as far as "great AI unit and easy AT if you need it" that's not how Ost was designed and each tier should be valuable. Adjust the cost of the tier if needed but it should be built for AT imo.
24 Jun 2019, 22:25 PM
#84
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I think tieing the Shreks to t2 is a good choice. Making the tier redundant is bad design and osts tech design is SUPPOSED ATO BE about each thing (building or tech) giving you things. Pgrens available earlier is a good change, but there should be some balancing factor for that. Otherwise it's just as much of a no Brainer as ptrs penals as far as "great AI unit and easy AT if you need it" that's not how Ost was designed and each tier should be valuable. Adjust the cost of the tier if needed but it should be built for AT imo.


Thank you for agreeing.
24 Jun 2019, 22:26 PM
#85
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I think tieing the Shreks to t2 is a good choice. Making the tier redundant is bad design and osts tech design is SUPPOSED ATO BE about each thing (building or tech) giving you things. Pgrens available earlier is a good change, but there should be some balancing factor for that. Otherwise it's just as much of a no Brainer as ptrs penals as far as "great AI unit and easy AT if you need it" that's not how Ost was designed and each tier should be valuable. Adjust the cost of the tier if needed but it should be built for AT imo.


I don't think the price of T2 needs adjusting if the Panzerschrecks require T2.

That single change is enough to set everything straight in my opinion.
24 Jun 2019, 22:29 PM
#86
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

Just lock shrecks behind T2 building and problem will be solved. T2 skip strong not only in earlier ostwind, but in OStwind + shrecks. If shreks will be lock behind T2, OSt player couldn't spam only ostwind and pgrens to deal with every unit. At least he will build stugs, mines or maybe T2 if something goes wrong.
24 Jun 2019, 22:38 PM
#87
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Seems fair.

I also think about split Schreck-upgrade into two. 1st Schreck (50mun) if T2 was searched, 2nd Schreck (50mun) if T2 was build.

24 Jun 2019, 22:40 PM
#88
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jun 2019, 21:40 PMLago


I would personally prefer Ostheer didn't have nondoc AT weapons if they skip T2. The previous dynamic worked fairly well and I don't think introducing this skip is to the benefit of the faction design.

PGrens in T0 are cool, but Panzerschrecks in T0 undermines the balance on which T2 was priced. Either that balance needs to be restored or T2 needs to be repriced to reflect it's new, reduced value.

Failing that, I'd like to see some action taken to better balance teching T2 against skipping T2. The current dynamic heavily rewards skipping T2. T2 becoming off-meta would be a great shame given how good a tier design it is.

Simply delay all tanks from light to heavy.

And stop allowing early access to powerful infatry.
24 Jun 2019, 22:42 PM
#89
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 110



"Change the whole new design?" How is locking shreck upgrade behind the same tech the entire unit used to be behind a radical change? It's such a minor tweak


Well, not that radically, but half of new Pgren scharm will go away.
By the way, why Ostheer player should pay more for Psreck research than opponent for LV research?
24 Jun 2019, 22:44 PM
#90
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

By splitting Schreck into two upgrades also the DPS drop wouldn't be that massive.

:P
24 Jun 2019, 23:36 PM
#91
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


By the way, why Ostheer player should pay more for Psreck research than opponent for LV research?


You're comparing apples to oranges, other things come with those tech costs besides LVs and Shrecks...
24 Jun 2019, 23:37 PM
#92
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Seems fair.

I also think about split Schreck-upgrade into two. 1st Schreck (50mun) if T2 was searched, 2nd Schreck (50mun) if T2 was build.



Thing is, pgrens used to have that capability. I know it was a different balance back then but they were bundled to make it a hard decision and I really really think that getting AT infantry SHOULD be a hard decision.they are highly mobile and can also be outfitted with camo and sprint, being able to retain some AI and also deter armour would be too "easy" choices are good
24 Jun 2019, 23:49 PM
#93
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



I spoke about giving them abilities to give them jobs in late-game. Never spoke about real buffs


Giving units abilities in the late game is a real buff. Was 7 man conscripts not a buff?

I'm not here to debate words, just please stop being so biased. Someone asks for minor ost nerfs, you say close the thread. That's not a fair reaction under any circumstances

25 Jun 2019, 00:06 AM
#94
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 110



You're comparing apples to oranges, other things come with those tech costs besides LVs and Shrecks...


No, I'm not.
For getting a T70 you pay nothing, it somes with building which you cannot ignore.
AEC tech is 15, while OP is pretending to pay 20 for possibility of schreck grade.
Same comes to USF: 10 or 15 fúel for access to Lu's or cap vehicles.
For G-ds sake, people are ignoring building of SU-76 and jump straight into T-34-85, we need to buff SU-76 or add tech requirement for... I don't know, penal PTRS (da hell I am speaking right now?) so people will not ignore this unit.
The whole thread is about "O, they do this, I don't like it, let's change it".
25 Jun 2019, 00:10 AM
#95
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Same comes to USF: 10 or 15 fúel for access to Lu's or cap vehicles.


Its 20 fuel to unlock the vehicles in LT or Cpt tier, not 10 or 15.

Yes, you are comparing apples to oranges. The 200mp and 20 fu you are talking about also comes with the 222, 251, and pak40. You can't isolate that to just shrecks, that's ridiculous

Also I have no clue what you're talking about with the t70. You pay for it's tech building...
25 Jun 2019, 00:13 AM
#96
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



No, I'm not.
For getting a T70 you pay nothing, it somes with building which you cannot ignore.
AEC tech is 15, while OP is pretending to pay 20 for possibility of schreck grade.
Same comes to USF: 10 or 15 fúel for access to Lu's or cap vehicles.
For G-ds sake, people are ignoring building of SU-76 and jump straight into T-34-85, we need to buff SU-76 or add tech requirement for... I don't know, penal PTRS (da hell I am speaking right now?) so people will not ignore this unit.
The whole thread is about "O, they do this, I don't like it, let's change it".

Skipping techs when possible is supposed to have drawbacks. It's supposed to be a choice that the player needs to make where the benifit of quicker tech faces off against the risk of not having what that tech offers. In this case T2 is supposed to house AT meaning skipping it and quick teching leaves clear counterplay- vehicles. Being able to get Shreks which are terribly effective against the target vehicles (it only takes 2 volleys to kill a light tank, meaning if 1 volley hits the tank needs to fall back) removes the risk in skipping. It's bad design.
25 Jun 2019, 01:27 AM
#98
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 110



Also I have no clue what you're talking about with the t70. You pay for it's tech building...


You anyway get this building, so there is not just special tech for getting it.
In this point I just don't get why people should get speacial tech for schreks, while they don't need anything else except them.
25 Jun 2019, 01:32 AM
#99
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 110


Skipping techs when possible is supposed to have drawbacks. It's supposed to be a choice that the player needs to make where the benifit of quicker tech faces off against the risk of not having what that tech offers. In this case T2 is supposed to house AT meaning skipping it and quick teching leaves clear counterplay- vehicles. Being able to get Shreks which are terribly effective against the target vehicles (it only takes 2 volleys to kill a light tank, meaning if 1 volley hits the tank needs to fall back) removes the risk in skipping. It's bad design.


It doesn't remove a risk of skipping, it just make you safe from brainless rush with LV like stuart ot T70 which caused a lot of mass-retreats before the patch.
Schreks as well as zooks are quite innacurate, especially on max range, and their range is lower than range of LVs main guns.
With the same logic you can call tellermines existance without T2 as "bad design".
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