Ostheer T2 Skip

Talking about the 250 in German Mechanized, which is less good value because of it comes later and gives you a Grenadier (of which you should have plenty at 2 CP). Previously, with T2 it would be too high of a manpower invesment to get and without T2 you'd be completely open to light vehicle rushes. Now, with Shrecked Pgrens as option, it suddenly became a good option.

You should also look at those costs holistically, almost no one makes T2 for a single vehicle. You more often see 2 light vehicles and a pak.

T2, a 222 and a Pak is 720 MP 50 FU.

Two PGren squads is 680 MP.

The drawbacks of skipping T2 are so minor now that it's just not worth 200 MP 20 FU any more.

T2, a 222 and a Pak is 720 MP 50 FU.

Two PGren squads is 680 MP.

The drawbacks of skipping T2 are so minor now that it's just not worth 200 MP 20 FU any more.

You forget the 100 muni cost for upgrading Schrecks, which butchers their AI, delays tellers/lmg's and - in the end - gives a worse AT unit than the pak40 (low far accuracy, high bleed, can be kited).

There's a reason pgrens are not that popular as AT. A 222 + pak40 + more tellers is much safer.

I do agree some of the cost of the Kampenya can be moved to T2 tech tho.

Alternative ideas:
- Move some of the mp cost of the Kampenya to T2 vehicles.
- Nerf Ostwind cost/performance slightly.
- IF touching Schrecks: require either Kampenya or Support Korps, so Schrecks are delayed by 85 fuel (105 - 20) if skipping T2.

The Tiger Ace has nothing to do with this. I don't care about faction-to-faction balance here.

My concern is that T2's not worth it at the moment. Teching T2 and getting light vehicles should be stronger than building PGrens, but the resource cost of the T2 building is so high for what you get that it's just not worth it.



If the T2 skip is balanced, then buff T2. My argument is that now Panzershrecks don't need T2, building T2 does not provide a benefit proportional to its cost.

IDK not getting raped by t70 or quad .50 is a pretty good benefit for not skipping t2. I personally wouldn't do it against any faction but the brits since their light vehicles are all easily counterable with schrecks (all two of them lol).

I personally wouldn't do it against any faction but the brits since their light vehicles are all easily counterable with schrecks (all two of them lol).

Except the AAHT of lend lease.

Except the AAHT of lend lease.

Oh yeah fax.

Problem with T2 skipping not in HMG spam, but in combo 3 Mg-42+early PGrens with shrecks+early Ostwind. Such 9:30-10 minutes combo very hard to counter.

This is my main reservation. There are very strong incentives to prioritize skipping T2 but rejigging the tier and/or building costs is a good way to handle this, as some have suggested. Perhaps also increasing the MU cost of the 'shrecks to delay their appearance. A light touch is needed here. While I never thought they needed moving in the first place, I think it could work with some minor changes.

You forget the 100 muni cost for upgrading Schrecks, which butchers their AI, delays tellers/lmg's and - in the end - gives a worse AT unit than the pak40 (low far accuracy, high bleed, can be kited).

There's a reason pgrens are not that popular as AT. A 222 + pak40 + more tellers is much safer.

You don't need to upgrade shreck till you see the first lv. Opportunity cost is way stronger on Pzgren than T2/222/pak.
You build two pzgren that are more than capable AI unit until you see a lv and then upgrade one of them with shreck. Pzgren gain vet as AI specialist that is going to be useful vs LVs.
If Pzgren had to pay munition and use slots for their AI then the situation would maybe be different since you couldn't swap so easily from AI to AT.

At the moment, there is little reason to build a 222+pak over 2 squads of pzgren, they are much more versatile and better investment on the long run since they will always be effective on the frontline even with shreck.
They can be camo with the appropriate commanders and they can be associate with a 250 wiht other commanders.
They allow you to get faster Ostwind, and in this purpose if your opponent decide to build a Lv, that's 100% beneficial for you since it will delay the first tank.

Last, skipping T2 doesn't mean you can't build it after. If your objective is fast Ostwind, once you get it on the field you can safely build your T2 for a pak soon after.

This is my main reservation. There are very strong incentives to prioritize skipping T2 but rejigging the tier and/or building costs is a good way to handle this, as some have suggested. Perhaps also increasing the MU cost of the 'shrecks to delay their appearance. A light touch is needed here. While I never thought they needed moving in the first place, I think it could work with some minor changes.

Anti-infantry Panzergrenadiers arrived too late in the old design, so they moved them to T0 so they could hit the field 200 MP 20 FU earlier.

The problem is the Panzershrecks provide a solid way to skip T2 entirely, turning T2 effectively into a sidetech.

As a sidetech, T2 is pretty poor value.

Either the risk of skipping T2 needs to go up (no Panzershrecks without it) or the relative cost of T2 needs to come down. Specifically the manpower cost.

The Pak may be better than PGrens, but it's not 180 MP better than PGrens.

Anti-infantry Panzergrenadiers arrived too late in the old design, so they moved them to T0 so they could hit the field 200 MP 20 FU earlier.

The problem is the Panzershrecks provide a solid way to skip T2 entirely, turning T2 effectively into a sidetech.

As a sidetech, T2 is pretty poor value.

Either the risk of skipping T2 needs to go up (no Panzershrecks without it) or the relative cost of T2 needs to come down. Specifically the manpower cost.

The Pak may be better than PGrens, but it's not 180 MP better than PGrens.

The risk of skipping T2 hits you hard the moment first med hits the field.
PGs aren't going to hold off any med for long also, FHT arguably gives you more field presence then early PGs. Once people realize how easily PGs can be abused with lights and light tanks, the skip won't be a problem.

Or to say it differently: skip isn't a problem if you don't have 4 digit rank or aren't playing irrelevant 3v3/4v4 where literally any goofball strat works.

I think T2 skip seems OP at the moment because it is a pretty hard counter to allied infantry spam swarms, which was meta for a good while. So people still doing normal builds and getting hurt by this kind of strat.

But it is entirely counterable.

I think T2 skip seems OP at the moment because it is a pretty hard counter to allied infantry spam swarms, which was meta for a good while. So people still doing normal builds and getting hurt by this kind of strat.

But it is entirely counterable.

You know i saw 2 games in a row of Nicko on his stream.
1-st game Nicko (SU) vs Aimstrong (OST) - 9:22 arrive OStwind. Game is ended in 11-12 minute - OST win.
2-nd game Nicko (OST) vs UKF (this player have 12 place for UKF in 1vs1). 10 minute Ostwind. Game is ended in 13 minute - OST win.
Strat for ost was one - MG-42+PGrens+Ostwind. No T1, no grens, no T2 with paks, no mines.

You can't have decent counter to 640HP armor AI unit in combo with elite infantry + best HMG in game in 10 minutes. If you couldn't kill 1-st ostwind for 3 minutes you got 2-nd. No T4 for you, no comeback.

The risk of skipping T2 hits you hard the moment first med hits the field.
PGs aren't going to hold off any med for long also, FHT arguably gives you more field presence then early PGs. Once people realize how easily PGs can be abused with lights and light tanks, the skip won't be a problem.

Or to say it differently: skip isn't a problem if you don't have 4 digit rank or aren't playing irrelevant 3v3/4v4 where literally any goofball strat works.

Why get a 251 FHT when you can get a 250 and the Flamer Pio to crew it with for 10 MP more and 30 MU and 30 FU less?

Why get a Pak Gun when getting PGrens instead saves you 200 MP and 20 FU?

I don't buy into this 'the enemy will just use lights' crap either: non-AAHT light vehicles are just as strong against T2. They'll kill the 222 and 251, and flank the Pak. The unit specialised to deal with them is wait for it Panzergrenadiers.

And if you're up against lights, you usually want unflankable infantry AT over an AT gun anyway.

T2 isn't balanced around being optional. Either the Panzershrecks need to be locked behind it, or it needs to waaaay cheaper.

I think relocking the Shrecks is by far and away the better solution: restoring the old balance of T2 is a lot easier than rebalancing it entirely as a sidetech.

I think T2 skip more powerful than it is at the moment because it is a pretty hard counter to allied infantry spam swarms, which was meta for a good while. So people still doing normal builds and getting hurt by this kind of strat.

But it is entirely counterable.

Of course it can be countered.

External balance isn't the problem. The issue is building T2 is a stupid decision now: the price of it offsets the current advantage of T2 units, and it slows your teching.

It'd be like UKF teching and building the AEC when they've got the Valentine available.

But when people start countering it propperly, normal T2 builds will become more solid again.


Part of the advantage of it is the PGs come out and provide good shock value against infantry which are trying to dig out your MGs.

I think if allies use M3, UC and M20 against this strat, it will force you to get a very early shrek (you dont even have snare), which prevents that first PG having an impact in the infatry battle (also no muni for bundled nade if you went fast shrek), so now their infatry should push you and your MGs off the map.

A single shrek squad isnt even that solid a counter to those lights, yes it will push them away, but they can go harass elsewhere, all the while they an focus you PG squad and force it to retreat.


There is definately a window to exploit before you have 2 squads with shreks.

I think if allies use M3, UC and M20 against this strat, it will force you to get a very early shrek (you dont even have snare), which prevents that first PG having an impact in the infatry battle (also no muni for bundled nade if you went fast shrek), so now their infatry should push you and your MGs off the map.

But you do have snares. They're in T1.

I'm talking about skipping exclusively T2.

You could lock shreks to T2, seems pretty reasonable.

Making T2 cheaper isn't a good idea because flame half track rush.

But I do think it's easy to counter, people just need to learn how to read it and what to build.

You could lock shreks to T2, seems pretty reasonable.

Making T2 cheaper isn't a good idea because flame half track rush.

But I do think it's easy to counter, people just need to learn how to read it and what to build

If you made T2 cheaper, you'd shunt the removed fuel cost to Battle Phase 1 to maintain the timings. Removed manpower could go to BP1 or BP2.

I think locking shrecks to T2 is a cleaner solution though.

If you made T2 cheaper, you'd shunt the removed fuel cost to Battle Phase 1 to maintain the timings. Removed manpower could go to BP1 or BP2.

I think locking shrecks to T2 is a cleaner solution though.

Imo this is a problem of all faction and should be addressed for all factions.

The timing of infatry should follow mainline infatry and all units available early should follow the PF approach (although the implementation of PF seem make them UP ). They Spawn weaker (at similar power level as the mainline infatry) but have weapon upgrades via tech available to them.

PGs for instance could span as a 260-280 with M40 or some other weapon combo and be able to buy weapon upgrades.

Imo this is a problem of all faction and should be addressed for all factions.

The timing of infatry should follow mainline infatry and all units available early should follow the PF approach (although the implementation of PF seem make them UP ). They Spawn weaker (at similar power level as the mainline infatry) but have weapon upgrades via tech available to them.

PGs for instance could span as a 260-280 with M40 or some other weapon combo and be able to buy weapon upgrades.

I don't think anti-infantry Panzergrenadiers are a problem.

The issue is building T2 being so much worse than building AT Panzergrenadiers.

I don't think anti-infantry Panzergrenadiers are a problem.

The issue is building T2 being so much worse than building AT Panzergrenadiers.

Yet this is a timing issue again. Unit seem to appear too early. There should be more time between phases so that investing in a phase of the game would be worth it.

Currently it is a race to heavy infatry and TDs, while shock units have buffed thru the roof just to be attractive.

Yet this is a timing issue again. Unit seem to appear too early. There should be more time between phases so that investing in a phase of the game would be worth it.

Currently it is a race to heavy infatry and TDs, while shock units have buffed thru the roof just to be attractive.

I don't see the relevance of this to T2's value as a tier.