15 minute Tiger/Tiger Ace in 4v4

Then we'd keep the problem that heavy tanks are generally not very useful because they come out so late they have to go up against vetted ATGs and TDs and rarely achieve anything.

I personally think a Heavy Tank rush should be a strategic option, just like how for example Ostheer can choose to skip T1 and rush light vehicles. Imo it should be balanced by risk and reward and opportunity, probably with a build time to help smooth out the shock timing, but not by an artificial checklist.

Rushing a Tiger or Tiger Ace right now is not an automatic win as long as the enemy suspected it and got a TD, as even a single TD can greatly mitigate the heavy's impact for almost half the price. A rushed Tiger/Ace will not have a lot of support and going up against a pre-built TD has a good chance of backfiring. But it does punish those who are either completely behind or ignored all the signals and got medium tanks or AI tanks or went for a lot of light vehicles. It would give heavies a strategic role (besides their tactical role of damage sponging and spearheading) that they currently somewhat lack.


So TLDR personally I do not like the idea of a dual requirement because it feels too artificial to me. But if it proves to be the only solution and if it's what everyone wants...

Rushing heavy armour ruins the game. You lose medium play and it's not like allied TDs havnt already made the meta stale as is. Now let's make them a requirement! I remember heavy tank meta where the game turned to turtle while both players hoard their fuel so they can get out their big Shiney tank. It was boring as fuck.

One could argue the game IS stale due to med spam, at least in 1vs1 it's pointless most of the time to do anything but rush medium armor and spam your Cromwell's etc until critical mass. Tiger changes are problematic because only Axis reap the benefits instead of touching tigers in a heavy focused patch.

Now if heavies are tied to tech and keep command points the Pershing/command panther/IS-2/croc etc would be better suited to 9-10. No one really wants to wait 30 mins+ into the game to use a tiger or IS-2 when the average game is already decided by then

Maybe place sturmtiger and AVRE at 8 or 9

Otherwise you will be making heavies unicorns with such late timing

Rushing a Tiger or Tiger Ace right now is not an automatic win as long as the enemy suspected it and got a TD, as even a single TD can greatly mitigate the heavy's impact for almost half the price. A rushed Tiger/Ace will not have a lot of support and going up against a pre-built TD has a good chance of backfiring. But it does punish those who are either completely behind or ignored all the signals and got medium tanks or AI tanks or went for a lot of light vehicles. It would give heavies a strategic role (besides their tactical role of damage sponging and spearheading) that they currently somewhat lack.

Wouldn't this just make tank destroyers even more favoured in team games?

I don't like this 'shock unit' strategic role concept for heavies. It creates a rock-paper-scissors situation where Scissors also beats Rock.

Why would you ever go for medium armour if you'd lose both to Heavy Tanks and to Tank Destroyers + Infantry?

Wouldn't this just make tank destroyers even more favoured in team games?

+1

In a teamgame with tech dependent heavy tanks without a CP requirement, you always will face fast rushed heavy tanks, because they are quite potent if you don't have all the tools to counter them (like offmap AT strikes that still come at 12 CPs).

Because of much more crowded maps and less room for flanking options with medium tanks in 3vs3 / 4vs4 allied team should always prepare by building TDs. Medium allround armor will be seen less, because they can't beat heavy tanks without flanking. TDs can fight heavy tanks without driving into AT guns and snares.

Therefore allied team has to go always for TDs to be prepared -> heavy tank rush leads not to more but to less diversity in gameplay by drastically cutting down the gamephase of medium armor

Just played a 2v2, skipped all tech for the ace.

The soviet palyer ,had his powerspike with his t70 and guards for a few mins and they gained a lot ground, but i was easily able to him back due to the ace. This felt a bit like the thing when it came out for the firsttime and this was not a good way to play coh at all. I guess it was a bit unexpected, but still stupid.

Don't mess with cps please, esp heaver doctrinal tier tanks are meant for the late game.

Which you shouldn't get until you have the cps for it. Too bad, you get cp xp for receiving damage.
But also they reflect a bit your skill and tactical choices during a round, where rule of thumb is, the more you hurt your opponent you will be rewarded for it.

And thats where the spot for ace should be in my opinion...

Rushing heavy armour ruins the game. You lose medium play and it's not like allied TDs havnt already made the meta stale as is. Now let's make them a requirement! I remember heavy tank meta where the game turned to turtle while both players hoard their fuel so they can get out their big Shiney tank. It was boring as fuck.

Honestly, now that i think about it, HT rush doesn't really make any difference, since allied TDs ARE a requirement anyway (and have been, always) because of Brummbars and Panthers, now you just have added Tigers into the mix for a well balanced diet I guess.

Regardless of that, I still think it's very silly that former CP13 units can be had around CP 5-8
And only for one side.

Honestly, now that i think about it, HT rush doesn't really make any difference, since allied TDs ARE a requirement anyway (and have been, always) because of Brummbars and Panthers, now you just have added Tigers into the mix for a well balanced diet I guess.

Regardless of that, I still think it's very silly that former CP13 units can be had around CP 5-8
And only for one side.

+1

We can also make a cool-down of 5 min when T4 is build, so you can't call in the Tiger directly. -> That would fit better for Wehrmacht.

The question that needs answering is this: why would you ever build two mediums instead of a heavy?

If there isn't a compelling answer to that question, then the new heavies will simply replace mediums in that mode.

Better question would why Axis and Allies are playing with different rulesets right now. Why remove CP requirement *only* from Tiger and leave allied heavies still bound by CP's?
Either just lock Tigers back to CP again and add tech requirement or remove CP requirement from Croc/IS-2/Pershing and bound them to tech too.

Honestly, now that i think about it, HT rush doesn't really make any difference, since allied TDs ARE a requirement anyway (and have been, always) because of Brummbars and Panthers, now you just have added Tigers into the mix for a well balanced diet I guess.

Regardless of that, I still think it's very silly that former CP13 units can be had around CP 5-8
And only for one side.

We should be moving away from TD meta not cementing it in the ground. There is a whole roster of units that don't really matter on both sides of the front because that allied TD will be the first thing outn

We should be moving away from TD meta not cementing it in the ground. There is a whole roster of units that don't really matter on both sides of the front because that allied TD will be the first thing outn

Personally i don't mind current meta, game seems to be most balanced and least-frustrating it has ever been (i'ts not like one stale meta won't be replaced with another stale meta anyway) but unless you plan on whacking Panthers, Brummbars, KTs and 251 Stuka that's really not going to work.

Not that I agree with the change done to the heavy tanks

Better question would why Axis and Allies are playing with different rulesets right now. Why remove CP requirement *only* from Tiger and leave allied heavies still bound by CP's?
Either just lock Tigers back to CP again and add tech requirement or remove CP requirement from Croc/IS-2/Pershing and bound them to tech too.

The reason I was given was they didn't want to bind all heavies to tech blind. They didn't have the resources to rebalance every heavy tank, so they only bound the ones they were working on in the commander patch.

I wanted them all bound in the patch we just had, but I was told binding the Command Panther without other adjustments would eliminate OKW's only competitive high level team game strategy.

The intent in the next patch is to bind them all to tech.

The reason I was given was they didn't want to bind all heavies to tech blind. They didn't have the resources to rebalance every heavy tank, so they only bound the ones they were working on in the commander patch.

I wanted them all bound in the patch we just had, but I was told binding the Command Panther without other adjustments would eliminate OKW's only competitive high level team game strategy.

The intent in the next patch is to bind them all to tech.

And next patch is coming when? Late Summer? Fall? This stuff should've been postoned untill then.

I really don't understand what is the problem here with dual requirements
1vs1 CPs don't matter, because you get them before you tech anyway
4vs4 tech doesn't matter, because you get it way before you have enough CP anyway.
Having both requiremnts covers both 1vs1 stalling strategies and 4vs4 rushes
I mean, if you go with a fuel funneling strat you can probably get a tiger out before UKF can get a Valentine (because its locked by CPs) and apparently that's not a problem?

But:
1v1s: Tech DOES matter, since it means a vulnerable opening
4v4s: CP DOES matter, because passive gameplay punishes your team that is doing the hardwork.

In between (another fact you simply ignored or hid) 3v3 and 2v2 become more competitive and predictable and coordination is even more important than 4v4s. Even with random teammates

Double requeriments, CP AND Tech means that 1v1s there wont be heavies because you cant tech and 4v4s wont be heavies too because in order to get them you have to spend all your resources in the tireless combat, at the moment you simply "save" resources you are throwing the game. In other words in 4v4s heavies are a meme, as they were and to get them is more of a pridepost than a actual useful unit. Not to mention that all the counters are already fielded because of the combat developing before you can call in a heavy tank.

It denies heavies in both game ends and makes it extremely if not almost impossible to get in 2v2s and 3v3s simply because the game is so much more competitive that the other team will simply exploit the advantage that causes saving for a heavy.

If you block heavies under CP & Tech then heavies must become what no one wants: I WIN buttons or very, but veeeeeeeeeery hard to destroy/displace

Better question would why Axis and Allies are playing with different rulesets right now. Why remove CP requirement *only* from Tiger and leave allied heavies still bound by CP's?
...

Maybe simply because tigers went almost extinct in the prior patch? To say that tigers and tiger ace were memes falls short.

Tigers were the prototype of the heavies tech binding, allied heavies are programmed to be changed the same way.

It was said here in the forums like countless of times.

Maybe simply because tigers went almost extinct in the prior patch? To say that tigers and tiger ace were memes falls short.

Tigers were the prototype of the heavies tech binding, allied heavies are programmed to be changed the same way.

It was said here in the forums like countless of times.

Even more extinct is the useless IS-2 which, moreover, is only available in two commanders. But for some reason it does not have any changes.

Even more extinct is the useless IS-2 which, moreover, is only available in two commanders. But for some reason it does not have any changes.

The only reason i find worth mentioning is useless complaints from biased players.

Specifically about the tiger/tiger ace there were threads of almost civil discussion about their tech rework.

IS2 is as worth as a Tiger to be re-included in the game with some tweaks/buffs. Sadly the dev team has limited resources and many people dont understand that.

Seriously if people complainting were funding the dev team i would be glad to see their posts, but its not the case. Ranting and demanding will lead this game to no where.

The only reason i find worth mentioning is useless complaints from biased players.

Specifically about the tiger/tiger ace there were threads of almost civil discussion about their tech rework.

IS2 is as worth as a Tiger to be re-included in the game with some tweaks/buffs. Sadly the dev team has limited resources and many people dont understand that.

Seriously if people complainting were funding the dev team i would be glad to see their posts, but its not the case. Ranting and demanding will lead this game to no where.

Damned IS-2, terrible long ago, it is more useless than the Tiger (without change). But for some unknown reason, instead of correcting the IS-2 (which I remind you to be in two commanders, but in fact in one — without the shock troops the USSR, it just sucks). It was decided to produce, how much already? Eight Tiger Commanders? And make a buff only to him.

Even more extinct is the useless IS-2 which, moreover, is only available in two commanders. But for some reason it does not have any changes.

They didn't have the resources to rebalance all the heavy tanks in the last patch.

All the heavies are slated to be rebalanced in the next big patch.

And next patch is coming when? Late Summer? Fall? This stuff should've been postoned untill then.

Then we'd have created three new Heavy Staller commanders for 1v1 and we'd have no idea how heavies tied to tech play.

I personally would have tied them all to tech blind and seen where things land, but tying two is better than tying zero in my book.