Echelon Grenades

After like 5 1v1 games as USF, my build order has been 4xRE to LT and 2xMG and here's what I think. The riflenade damage output is good, not too strong and not too weak. now considering, that the upgrade costs 60 muni, it is worth mentioning that in the early game I didn't really feel the impact. But I did have the capping power which was nice. Later stages, the riflenades will do enough damage to idle squads and MG's if I manage to flank well enough, so its extra micro for my opponent. Tho keeping RE's alive requires extra attention.

Right now, its assgren + pgren blob vs riflenades and Its a good counter for this sort of axis strategy (most players play wehr atm). I haven't played anyone top50 yet, so I think this strategy is fairly difficult against a good opponent as it does require a good micro to pull off. It's a gimmic strat and I do believe this will ease off soon enough. I personally see that RE's gain a little boost with the upgrade, nothing game breaking. Also, mp bleed is quite heavy with RE's constantly dying.

Considering Team games, I had success in both 2v2 games I had, but it wasn't easy, both games dragged to 1H mark and RE's weren't the backbone of my army.

I do like the commander, but seriously, riflenades aren't as op as I read from this thread. They are different for sure, but not gamebreaking and I wouldn't mind them being as they are, a little flavor to the commander.

Now I will get some games as axis and see what others do with them.

I's somehow 350-500 rank player for axis/allies and like switching armies (I don't use key shortcuts and can't play too often) but I agree completely with the above. There are rifle nades for echelons but ost finally has some more sensible close quarter units. RE now sort of balance those long range infantry units such as lmggrens while ost got new cqc units. Let's play and experiment more before judging it too quickly. I thing that us/ost matchup got so much more veriety after this patch so thank yopu everybody who worked to implement it.

When you're facing flamethrowers, you have to micro your units out of cover or they'll take extra damage. Facing RET Riflenades, you have to micro your units to move a bit after you hear the ping. You even have an extra second before detonation and longer range means longer reaction time. I personally don't see how this is really any different from flamethrowers.

They're even pretty easy to counter compared to flamers by rushing within 20 range (their minimum firing distance).

The player using the flamer has to move to range 20 to use them.
The player defending has to move to a range closer to 20 to avoid being bombarded.

That is a big difference.

For some strange reason RE received another buff with changes to volley fire that can be used to
to stop unit from moving to minimum range.

My suggestion about rifle grenades would be moved to either riflemen and be swapped with flamer from the infatry commander or to Tommies in order to help vs garrison.

These weapon should simply not be available to spammable units.

My suggestion about rifle grenades would be moved to either riflemen

That would just make it worse. RET Riflenades can be outplayed by moving within their minimum range because RET carbines are trash. If Riflemen had the Riflenade, they would be way stronger because they (especially with a BAR) excel at 0-20 range and the Riflenade would help them at long range.

That would just make it worse. RET Riflenades can be outplayed by moving within their minimum range because RET carbines are trash. If Riflemen had the Riflenade, they would be way stronger because they (especially with a BAR) excel at 0-20 range and the Riflenade would help them at long range.

I doubt that. The problem with ability is when that is spammable on RE, it woudn't be on riflemen. In addition 4 garand are that good mid to close.

In addition if it proved problematic with BAR it could be changed to take all weapons slots, designed to give an advantage in long range and weakness in mid to close.

Apart form any other benefits the change would provide rifle company with a new ability to riflemen so it would suit them thematically and flamer would better suit and urban commander.

When you're facing flamethrowers, you have to micro your units out of cover or they'll take extra damage. Facing RET Riflenades, you have to micro your units to move a bit after you hear the ping. You even have an extra second before detonation and longer range means longer reaction time. I personally don't see how this is really any different from flamethrowers.

They're even pretty easy to counter compared to flamers by rushing within 20 range (their minimum firing distance).

The difference is parity of input.

One of the strongest parts of CoH's design is it's not an APM game: it's much more about taking smart actions than more actions. In most engagements, you analyse the field, put your squads in the right places and wait for the opponent to react.

The problem with the RET grenades is they autofire but they're designed to be dodged. Dealing with these things is an APM game. Dodging them is trivial: you just tell the squad to move to the side and you've negated the damage. The problem is you have to keep doing this, whereas all your opponent has to do is position the RET squad and leave them to it.

This degrades the experience into an APM game. Their current design relies entirely on overheating micro: using up so much of your opponent's attention dodging all the autofire grenades that they can't focus on other things.

Some people might not see anything wrong with this sort of thing, but I'm saddened to see it in a game that's avoided this sort of design in the past and taken steps to remove it where it exists.


In my opinion, the simplest solution is to remove the timers: make the grenades explode on impact so you can't dodge them and scale the damage they inflict accordingly. If you can't dodge the grenades, then it turns back into a positioning game: you either have to close within the minimum range or retreat.

They're just bad mortars.

It is a mortar that lets a player paying attention to mitigate the damage with micro, therefore raising the skill ceiling for the defending player compared to traditional indirect.

Like mortars they are useless at any combat besides their barrage.

Like mortars they have some utility support - smoke, specifically. While RET are quicker to respond mortars have a better range.


This isn't a problem. People complaining that this is unreasonable to counter have it all backwards. It's a mortar analogy that has more counters IF you invest micro into it, rather than being a random dice roll on where an impact detonation shell lands.

They're just bad mortars.

It is a mortar that lets a player paying attention to mitigate the damage with micro, therefore raising the skill ceiling for the defending player compared to traditional indirect.

Like mortars they are useless at any combat besides their barrage.

Like mortars they have some utility support - smoke, specifically. While RET are quicker to respond mortars have a better range.

This isn't a problem. People complaining that this is unreasonable to counter have it all backwards. It's a mortar analogy that has more counters IF you invest micro into it, rather than being a random dice roll on where an impact detonation shell lands.

Is it skill though? There's no thought or strategy that goes into it. It's just APM.

I'd genuinely prefer it if it was a baby mortar.

I've played multiple 2v2s and 4v4s with this on both sides and am not really seeing the same thing. It works in it's intended role of harassing an HMG and soft-countering bunkers, but so far whenever I tried to grenade an enemy squad they just run up to me or move out of sight (at which point I have to micro ground-attack).

Is this an exclusively 1v1 issue?

I don´t really mind it as it is…

But a change to target it manually wouldnt be a bad idea

However, a replacement with a flamer or removal is a big no no

Just use your stupid OP Assault Grens and too early Panzergrens. How is this even an issue?

do u sexually identify as the USF faction incarnate, everyone plays all faction there is no YOURS or MINE (only OURS comrade )

people are asking to make it either a on hit weapon with no timer but less damage or much longer aim time (like v coh), or just use the flame thrower but at that point i would suggest putting in the assault engineer (cue urban assault)

I don´t really mind it as it is…

But a change to target it manually wouldnt be a bad idea

However, a replacement with a flamer or removal is a big no no

Could even make it cheaper and tie it to volley fire. That certainly could be interesting if nothing else.

I say leave it as it is for now. In the upcoming tournament AE is running we will see what is OP and what is not.

Honestly I say this for all things related to the patch. Leave it all alone until after the tournament and that will be a good amount of time for the masses to play and adjust and then get some high level games in too.

The difference is parity of input.

One of the strongest parts of CoH's design is it's not an APM game: it's much more about taking smart actions than more actions. In most engagements, you analyse the field, put your squads in the right places and wait for the opponent to react.

The problem with the RET grenades is they autofire but they're designed to be dodged. Dealing with these things is an APM game. Dodging them is trivial: you just tell the squad to move to the side and you've negated the damage. The problem is you have to keep doing this, whereas all your opponent has to do is position the RET squad and leave them to it.

This degrades the experience into an APM game. Their current design relies entirely on overheating micro: using up so much of your opponent's attention dodging all the autofire grenades that they can't focus on other things.

Some people might not see anything wrong with this sort of thing, but I'm saddened to see it in a game that's avoided this sort of design in the past and taken steps to remove it where it exists.

Completely agree.

Autofire grenades on infantry are just bad design. Right now they are not OP, but that doesn't mean they are well designed. Against good players that can micro these riflenades are completely useless, a waste of resources.

Give this a targeted barrage so good players will actually use it. Let us pick where it will fire and make it accurate instead of hoping the ai shoots at the right target at the right time. It will also feel much less frustrating for the opponent to know they made a mistake and the USF player took advantage of it, instead of doing random damage that they aren't even watching.

That's the difference between rear echelons and a mortar. Infantry fights are sacred and special. They require careful planning, monitoring, and positioning. This riflenade does not benefit from any of that. A skilled player is not any better with this ability than a weak player.

Make this a targeted shot. Make skill matter, not just the opponents micro.

I say leave it as it is for now. In the upcoming tournament AE is running we will see what is OP and what is not.

The argument here isn't it being too powerful. In terms of game balance, I think they feel about right. How many times must I repeat this?

The problem, which I explain in detail in post #90, is that countering these grenades requires little thought but a large number of player actions. Most of CoH's design is the other way around.

Therefore I'd like to see either manual targeting or the grenades to be made faster and undodgeable.

The argument here isn't it being too powerful. In terms of game balance, I think they feel about right. How many times must I repeat this?

The problem, which I explain in detail in post #90, is that countering these grenades requires little thought but a large number of player actions. Most of CoH's design is the other way around.

Therefore I'd like to see either manual targeting or the grenades to be made faster and undodgeable.

Its easier to run UP to a squad then from it.
It takes one click within 20 range of RETs.

1-2PGs/AGs will do the job for ost and OKW can just continue rolling on volks and do the same.

And if there is RET spam with nades, LV will completely shut it down.