Panther armor rebalance.

But chruchills pens has to be nerfed a little bit.

This proposal actually make comet more useful without changing brit

I have a feeling this thread is going to derail very quickly.

Anyway, as someone said if you reduce the front armour further than current, this would open up allowing premium mediums to eat it alive.

Panther availability for ostheer is its main problem, this should be better when heavies are tied to tech. I honestly think its moving accuracy penalty should be decreased to allow it to dive a get a connecting shot off.

I have no idea why would you want to nerf Panther like that, but fair enough I guess.

No……in fact 110 or 121 rear armor when they face AT weapon almost the same……And reduce front armor is big nerf for panther

I have a feeling this thread is going to derail very quickly.

If you nerf Panther's frontal armor there will be some units to nerf too. Churchill will be able to pen Panther to easy.

That's a nerf to proper PV micro.

Now because it's bugging me, 260(0.1) + 260 = 286, not 284. just saying, that value is wrong.

Ontopic: I don't see why it needs changing. The panther currenly sits on its throne made of stock mediums. Why make it more vunerable to what it deals with without even nerfing the TDs which shut it down anyways?

That's a nerf to proper PV micro.

As an aside, that kind of thing isn't always necessarily bad. If a unit overperforms at a high level, but underperforms at a low level, that kind of change helps address both. My (again, off topic) point is that theres more than just "does this unit overperform/underperform." There's "how does this unit perform at each skill level," and there are ways to selectively adjust its performance at certain parts of the spectrum. I think most people just see a number change and think of it as a blanket nerf to all levels when theres usually more nuance to it than that.

As an aside, that kind of thing isn't always necessarily bad. If a unit overperforms at a high level, but underperforms at a low level, that kind of change helps address both. My (again, off topic) point is that theres more than just "does this unit overperform/underperform." There's "how does this unit perform at each skill level," and there are ways to selectively adjust its performance at certain parts of the spectrum. I think most people just see a number change and think of it as a blanket nerf to all levels when theres usually more nuance to it than that.

Thumbs up. That is CoH2 balancing the last years. xD

Don't touch it again until a thorough rework of all tanks is to be done.

As an aside, that kind of thing isn't always necessarily bad. If a unit overperforms at a high level, but underperforms at a low level, that kind of change helps address both. My (again, off topic) point is that theres more than just "does this unit overperform/underperform." There's "how does this unit perform at each skill level," and there are ways to selectively adjust its performance at certain parts of the spectrum. I think most people just see a number change and think of it as a blanket nerf to all levels when theres usually more nuance to it than that.

While I understand the thinking, slightly raising the Panther's rear armour isn't going to change much balancewise. It'll add low probability bounces which are frustrating when they happen but make barely any difference to actual durability.

It's like abandons: they're so rare they don't make a difference in the majority of games, but it's not a good experience being on the receiving end when they do.

Panther shouldn't be bouncing shots from its ass. That's the point of its low rear armour. It should be bouncing shots from its front though, and that's the purpose of its front armour... Not really sure why this needs explanation...

Except it has a big weakass rear though. And the front dont scale into late games. Hence we are researching how to best distribute its armor. To make it work better for its 3Ts costs, to give it a clearer role, something that scales better against the rigor of heavy armour and ranged Td that got good scaling.

The present armor skirts feel short changed, a lack of reward for growing up with xp. And more importantly, dont scale progressively than the number looked.

How about 220/95 vet0. 286/124 vet2. +30%. Yes the numbers look big buff at vet, sure to cause allies players some noise.

But look closer, vet2 still makes no difference against it hard counter. We still want it to grow stronger against med tanks and heavy armour. It's weaker at vet0, meaning there is a dynamics for allies to kill it faster and for axis to feel rewarded keeping it alive, knowing its xp can distanced against max range meds.

To supplement this, i think comet can get cheaper, -5% fuel and 16 pop, to make it sit between cromwell and panther, and give Brit a choice between Churchill and it at 16 pop. To kill panther faster or dig in with Churchill..

I guess all you guys write makes perfect sense. I'd go for decreasing penetration on some allied vehicles' guns such as churchill rather than experiment with panther. My understanding of the problem is that some allied vehicles are too reliable against both armour and infantry at the same time. Panther is kind of funny because it is crap against infantry and lacks range to fight tank destroyers or has too much trouble (for its cost and tech requirements) with typical infantry tanks such as churchills, kvs, etc. The churchill is just crazy imo.

I'd rather see panther sort of anti-tank plus a bit anty-infantry unit. In contrast churchills, kvs, kv1, and is2, pershing should kill infantry with ease (like they do now) but should have some more trouble with a panther. Since it is a very delicate matter i'd start with buffing panther anty infantry slightly and see how it works (to the level of say some light vehicles from the allies rooster such as stuart/t70/scout cars). This way panther would have trouble with say churchills or kv tanks but would make up for it by being more of a threat to infantry.

(I'm writing about ost panther)

Real life Panther has 110' angled frontal armor (90')
Side and rear are around 45'-50' vertical. That's worse than T34 armor.

COH2 Panther has amazing better than Tiger armor on 180' covering because
of lack of 'side' armor. And you want to buff the rear 180' armor way
above historical values?

Already, it had 4 gears forward and 1 gear rear, and it can turbo
blitzkrieg in reverse behind instant smoke for insane survivability.

You just don't want it to have - any - weaknesses.

Except it has a big weakass rear though. And the front dont scale into late games. Hence we are researching how to best distribute its armor. To make it work better for its 3Ts costs, to give it a clearer role, something that scales better against the rigor of heavy armour and ranged Td that got good scaling.

The present armor skirts feel short changed, a lack of reward for growing up with xp. And more importantly, dont scale progressively than the number looked.

How about 220/95 vet0. 286/124 vet2. +30%. Yes the numbers look big buff at vet, sure to cause allies players some noise.

But look closer, vet2 still makes no difference against it hard counter. We still want it to grow stronger against med tanks and heavy armour. It's weaker at vet0, meaning there is a dynamics for allies to kill it faster and for axis to feel rewarded keeping it alive, knowing its xp can distanced against max range meds.

To supplement this, i think comet can get cheaper, -5% fuel and 16 pop, to make it sit between cromwell and panther, and give Brit a choice between Churchill and it at 16 pop. To kill panther faster or dig in with Churchill..

==============

- The Panther front AND rear armor got hard nerfed last time axis demanded allied TDs to be nerfed.
They got their wish. And Panther, StuG, hulldown, and command Panzer 4 all got nerfed at same time as
a result.

Side note : Panther got a nice health buff, however.

As for the Comet, it's a dead tank. As in dead, dead, dead.
No one uses it. If we triple the comet fuel cost, can we further nerf the Panther?
Bris won't care. No one even remembers what a Comet looks like at all.
Cromwell and Chuchill spam. Hammer is overwhelmingly underwelming so hard it's dead.

Panther shouldn't be bouncing shots from its ass. That's the point of its low rear armour. It should be bouncing shots from its front though, and that's the purpose of its front armour... Not really sure why this needs explanation...

I agree. Especially when it was notorious for having poor armor on sides/rear.
It had better armor than the tiger. Yes. But on the 90' angle front. Not the COH2 180' angle front.
The COH2 has 2x more armor coverage than the real life Panther - And they want it increased.

Panther armor loss was for the hard allied nerfing demanded last patch.

But allies td are still dominant and scales better late game, no?
I dont quite remember what the hard nerfs to allies td, expect making jackson more expensive.
They are all still very strong, add in high armor tanks and fast med tanks, hence this topic is suggested.
And panther did not get health buff, it just got moved forward.
While we can do historical records, this wont work in game thanks to td, panther 3Ts and the likes.

And panther did not get health buff, it just got moved forward.

The effect it had was most definitely a buff for the Panther.

I think reason why comet is less use, is the cost since relic raised it. Churchill is cheaper and much easier to micro and still do damages to all targets.

If you look closer, this change makes panther weaker at vet0-1, and scale better from vet2, providing armor and mobility to deal with allies heavy. I think its also good to reduce pop from 18 to 17, since nerf on new built. Ost is primarily pop cap limited imo

The effect it had was most definitely a buff for the Panther.

I think they made it more expensive too.
And also removed some okw vet bonuses