Panther armor rebalance.

I think they made it more expensive too.
And also removed some okw vet bonuses

The Ostheer Panther was made more expensive because it was standardized with the OKW one. Nothing happened to their veterancy.

PANTHER CHANGES
Both Panthers are being standardized in reload and accuracy to improve performance; the health bonus at veterancy 2 has been shifted to the unit’s stock performance to improve its survivability against tank destroyers. Now possibly in its best spot yet.
• Wehr Panther fuel cost from 175 to 185
• Wehr far accuracy increased from 0.03 to 0.035
• HP increase from 800 to 960 (all variants)
• Front armour reduced to 260
• Veterancy 2 +160 HP bonus replaced by +10% armour bonus
• OKW Panther reload from 6.1 - 6.4 to 5.2 - 5.6
• Rear armour reduced from 110 to 90 (all variants)
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p5

==============

- The Panther front AND rear armor got hard nerfed last time axis demanded allied TDs to be nerfed.
They got their wish. And Panther, StuG, hulldown, and command Panzer 4 all got nerfed at same time as
a result.

Side note : Panther got a nice health buff, however.

As for the Comet, it's a dead tank. As in dead, dead, dead.
No one uses it. If we triple the comet fuel cost, can we further nerf the Panther?
Bris won't care. No one even remembers what a Comet looks like at all.
Cromwell and Chuchill spam. Hammer is overwhelmingly underwelming so hard it's dead.

That is actually simplification and rather inaccurate.

A vet 2Panther used to be 320/99 armor 960 HP vehicles for years
Now it a 286/99 960 HP.

The unit simply become stronger at vet 0 weaker at vet 2.

The Ostheer Panther was made more expensive because it was standardized with the OKW one. Nothing happened to their veterancy.

that is a change in their veterancy
• Veterancy 2 +160 HP bonus replaced by +10% armour bonus

it had received another nerf a couple of patches ago
Ostheer
"Panzer V Panther
The Panther's veterancy has been adjusted to bring its scaling better in-line with its counterparts while improvements have been made to its rate of fire and MGs to help it achieve veterancy quicker and better fend off infantry assaults.

Population from 16 to 18
Reload time decreased from 5.8/6.7 to 5.2/5.6
Hull and coaxial machine guns performance improved to OKW variant
Veterancy 10% armor bonus removed"

"OKW
Panzer V Panther
The Panther has received adjustments to make it more accessible in 1v1 but less attractive to field groups of Panthers in team games due to increased fire on the move penalties and increased population.

Fuel cost from 200 to 185
Moving scatter from 1.7 to 2
Moving accuracy from 0.65 to 0.5
Population from 16 to 18
Veterancy 4 range bonus removed
Veterancy 5 sight bonus requires the tank to remain stationary
Veterancy 2 armor bonus removed."


Worth noting it this change:
Rear armour reduced from 110 to 90 (all variants)

Which imo is not justified.

that is a change in their veterancy
• Veterancy 2 +160 HP bonus replaced by +10% armour bonus

We had already established that, Sherlock. The health/armor shift is what we were talking about. Nothing else changed for OKW's Panther's veterancy in that same patch, which is what I was clarifying as I specifically responded to:

[responding to armor/health shift]

I think they made it more expensive too.
And also removed some okw vet bonuses

Neither is the big moving accruacy nerf for a tank supposed to be mobile. Does the changes make it go from 16 to 18 popcap justify? I dont think so too.

My proposed change to armor and moving accuracy buff seems fair. No?
It puts panther back in wehr army progressively, Panzer -> Panther -> Tiger.

In summary

Panther (edit i think making moving accrucay earlier is better, together with blitz)
Pop: 18 to 17
Vet0: 220/95
Vet1: +0.05 moving accruacy
Vet2: 286/124


Comet
Pop: 18 to 17
Fuel: 185 to 175

Anyone see this is not good?

It puts panther back in wehr army progressively, Panzer -> Panther -> Tiger.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that panther is not, was not and will never be generalist tank?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that panther is not, was not and will never be generalist tank?

What is the reason you say this?

Putting this way, makes wehr faction more distinct and easier to understand.
Ultimately, it is more to make Panther works across a match.

What is the reason you say this?

Oh I don't know....
The obvious fact supported by units statistics, screaming that its not a generalist tank, but an AT vehicle designed to outlast all non AT dedicated vehicles?

Putting this way, makes wehr faction more distinct and easier to understand.
Ultimately, it is more to make Panther works across a match.

If its so confusing for you, lets remove panther from both axis factions and place turretless, fragile tank destroyer instead.
Give them both Marder 3, so you can no longer be confused.

Oh I don't know....
The obvious fact supported by units statistics, screaming that its not a generalist tank, but an AT vehicle designed to outlast all non AT dedicated vehicles?


If its so confusing for you, lets remove panther from both axis factions and place turretless, fragile tank destroyer instead.
Give them both Marder 3, so you can no longer be confused.

How does my proposal makes it more generalist?
Instead doesnt it make it last better against non TD?
And slightly better in mobile AT role?
And more possibility of repair pio thus lasting longer?
You have 2 vet levels to combat it on better grounds.
You need to look closer.
Dont just scream whenever you see 'buff' on axis units.

640hp at 60 range only 16pop with pen/reload vet and/or Ap rounds, is not fragile now though.
I think marder 3 could come back as a doctrine unit, or replaces stug.

How does my proposal makes it more generalist?
Instead doesnt it make it last better against non TD?
And slightly better in mobile AT role?
And more possibility of repair pio thus lasting longer?
You have 2 vet levels to combat it on better grounds.
You need to look closer.
Dont just scream whenever you see 'buff' on axis units.

640hp at 60 range only 16pop with pen/reload vet and/or Ap rounds, is not fragile now though.
I think marder 3 could come back as a doctrine unit, or replaces stug.

It puts panther back in wehr army progressively, Panzer -> Panther -> Tiger

See this line you've made?
It screams that you do not understand the role and place of the unit.
Its -NOT- any natural progression, its a specialist vehicle that can't be compared to the units you've putting it together with.

See this line you've made?
It screams that you do not understand the role and place of the unit.
Its -NOT- any natural progression, its a specialist vehicle that can't be compared to the units you've putting it together with.

I still dont get it? The role is still the same? I did not propose changes to AOE for more AI and such?

Ok maybe i got you confused.

I was meaning about the armor theme of Wehr units. My proposal makes it beautiful and useful clear progression

stug -> panzer -> panther -> tiger

Anyone else feels same? Any thing i missed out?

I still dont get it? The role is still the same? I did not propose changes to AOE for more AI and such?

Ok maybe i got you confused.

I was meaning about the armor theme of Wehr units. My proposal makes it beautiful and useful clear progression

stug -> panzer -> panther -> tiger

Anyone else feels same? Any thing i missed out?

The thing is there's no such "progression". Even the closer PIV/Tiger relationship are quite different. All those tanks fulfill different roles.

Show Spoiler

T34-76 into T34-85 is a progression. Or the Cromwell into Comet. They fulfill the same roles, just better.
Talking about the Comet, the change is bad. You don't fix the issues with the comet while trying to make it more spammable.


Improvements which are rationale towards the PV without disrupting the current balance:

-Give it a plain 30% accuracy at vet 2. Similar to other AT vehicles. The 10% armor and 40% rotation doesn't cut it at that level.
-Replace Blitz Assault with Combat Blitz. Basically you exchange the acceleration compound from the ability for 100% increased accuracy and RoF. Less of an escape ability and more of an offensive one.

Doesn't anybody think if it had a bit more anty infantry capabilities nobody would complain? Now it in neither TD nor AI tank.

nobody would complain?

Good joke. People will always complain.

Good joke. People will always complain.

True

But to the point. Because it has inferior range to TD it has to rush them which is risky due to the density of ant tank options at the stage of the game panther appears. A lot of them are infantry held. If it was a bit more scary to infantry it could work. I understand that better range is out of question.

I still dont get it? The role is still the same? I did not propose changes to AOE for more AI and such?

Ok maybe i got you confused.

I was meaning about the armor theme of Wehr units. My proposal makes it beautiful and useful clear progression

stug -> panzer -> panther -> tiger

Anyone else feels same? Any thing i missed out?

The only one you confused is yourself.
Your trying to forge inexistent progression while ignoring units intended roles.
They should not be picked because one is cheaper then another, its not World of Tanks, you don't tech up from P4 to panther to tiger, you pick specific vehicle as a response to specific threat.

Doesn't anybody think if it had a bit more anty infantry capabilities nobody would complain? Now it in neither TD nor AI tank.

Its a brawler, its supposed to outlast its targets, not outDPS them.
Also, if you think it got bad AI, I suggest you check the DPS of its MGs and compare it to actual TDs AI DPS.

Its a brawler, its supposed to outlast its targets, not outDPS them.
Also, if you think it got bad AI, I suggest you check the DPS of its MGs and compare it to actual TDs AI DPS.

I agree, but with more difficult repairs ans lots of at options it faces after the patches plus stronger tank destroyers designed to deal with King Tiger paeple rightly complain that panther stopped being sensible for its cost. They want buffs to armour, penetration, special at ammunition and so on. My idea is to buff ai to make it a bit more all around tank. It should imo have shorter range than TDs (it has) but AI of a light vehicle. This would justify the tech requirements and price more.

The problem is that the "AI effectiveness" changes depending on the mode. Decent enough for 1v1, average on 2v2 and bad for 3v3+

Ex:
1v: you will eventually force a retreat on a single squad capping a VP on it's ow
2v2: it's more than likely that by the time you force to retreat a squad, another one is coming because, guess what, double the amount of units in the map.
3v3+: anecdotally AI.

Inversely, PV are more accessible on teamgames and can easily reach critical mass if the player doesn't suicide them deep on enemy lines.

I agree, but with more difficult repairs ans lots of at options it faces after the patches plus stronger tank destroyers designed to deal with King Tiger paeple rightly complain that panther stopped being sensible for its cost. They want buffs to armour, penetration, special at ammunition and so on. My idea is to buff ai to make it a bit more all around tank. It should imo have shorter range than TDs (it has) but AI of a light vehicle. This would justify the tech requirements and price more.

That would simply make it too attractive of an option and would outshine other units. It would ruin team games (again) because all you would need is panthers

Reducing the front armour does nothing against its intended counters while making it weaker against other units. Premium mediums would have an easier time brawling with the panther in exchange for being more durable when flanked?

Allied TDs need toning down. Don't adjust a functioning unit due to an overperforming one

Hi katitof, i still don't get where you going. I don't see any complicated line about the progression you talk of.

Teching bp and bases upgrade is all there is. There is a cost to get panther and that's that. You speak as if you can pick and choose. Not happening as game goes on.

Anyway I'm glad more agree with panther weakness and need buff. Giving abilities and accuracy is another solution. I still prefer my armor rebalance because it is simpler and clearer stepping up for each unit tier.

And 220 is still very strong, not sure which premium med can get it easier. Pershing? I mean it already have ap round and flanking speeds. Redistribution of armor just make more sense as a late game brawler, the need to harden against cheaper nondoc med and AI tanks like kv and Churchill.

Btw the 960hp make sense if it can fend for it. Most time you going to face 2-3 turrets to your 1, some out of your range, hardly a working advantage unless it makes those turrets work harder

The big question though, is relic aware of this? Will there be another relook after this week patch? Are we contributing for nothing?

That would simply make it too attractive of an option and would outshine other units. It would ruin team games (again) because all you would need is panthers

Reducing the front armour does nothing against its intended counters while making it weaker against other units. Premium mediums would have an easier time brawling with the panther in exchange for being more durable when flanked?

Allied TDs need toning down. Don't adjust a functioning unit due to an overperforming one

Toning down TDs a bit is another perfectly valid option. My favourite would be some faster repair option for ost or pio crit repairs - also could do the job.