In my opinion the main problem is that with Soviets you're picking specific strategy and after that is all about execution of that strategy.
You pick specific commander and you're forced to fallow specific build order and have specific units on the field or you will loose. There is a synergy between some of the Soviets units and knowing it and be able to utilize it in battle will give you advantage.
With Germans you can always adopt to whatever your opponent is doing and you have everything you need to win the game in your basic buildings. You don't even have to choose your doctrine to be able to win.
German's buildings are also more balanced with both AT and AI option for every tier. You won't get that with Soviets.
What's more you're quite often forced to follow specific BO also your tech is more obvious for your opponent when you play as Soviet.
German flexibility vs Soviet flexibility
13 Oct 2013, 23:07 PM
#41
Posts: 1439
13 Oct 2013, 23:10 PM
#42
Posts: 598
I basically agree but I'd note that Ostruppen's scout car counter is somewhat stronger because you'll have twice as many units on the field (hence twice as many fausts/nades) as you would with either Grenadiers or Conscripts.
true, but ostruppen dies faster, it would also depends on the positioning which may not work since they die really quickly and they don't have oorah. so i still think that catching a scout car is more difficult with ostruppen than it is with conscripts.
13 Oct 2013, 23:49 PM
#43
Posts: 480
true, but ostruppen dies faster, it would also depends on the positioning which may not work since they die really quickly and they don't have oorah. so i still think that catching a scout car is more difficult with ostruppen than it is with conscripts.
My thing with that is that with a gren squad (say if you need to remove one from a building) you can actually charge it with a scout car flamer, take the faust, force off the squad and repair. With 2 Ostruppen you can't do that at all because they have 2 fausts. With that and the sniper against 6 man 10mp squads I can't imagine building Soviet Tier 1 after seeing Ostruppen.
With conscripts it's a little more complicated, I agree, though right now I find the German scout car a bit easier to keep alive in general (it feels much more resilient against small arms fire).
14 Oct 2013, 00:26 AM
#44
Posts: 68
OP is biased. Soviet units are not analogue to German. MG - for instance - deals high damage to specific units, though it is less capable as a defensive emplacement. Fails to consider artillery options Soviet has plenty of. Tiger is awfully cheap, yes... but field repairs can be costly.
But yeah, the thread has basically devolved into bickering and insults by this point, so...
Points can be made for either side. Soviet commanders can round out a build quite nicely... though Ost/AssGren really... cheese. dammit. Getting pretty sick of script spam too.
But yeah, the thread has basically devolved into bickering and insults by this point, so...
Points can be made for either side. Soviet commanders can round out a build quite nicely... though Ost/AssGren really... cheese. dammit. Getting pretty sick of script spam too.
14 Oct 2013, 01:43 AM
#45
Posts: 299
The problem with soviets currently is that con spam is the only effective build they can do at the highest level. This is countered by ostruppen tech builds (haven't played any since the patch but they where last patch) and assgrens; as well as just good German play.
At the end of the day con spam is completely one dimensional and you pretty much know what is coming and it is just a race to see who gets tanks first. soviets can mix in a doctrinal unit like guards, shocks, 120mm instead of getting a 5th squad, but really getting anything out of your buildings before hitting t3 make any sense compared to the above options because it is likely to be countered as soon as it hits the field, and even if it isn't countered. Rarely does it have much more impact then adding another con squad or geting a doctianl unit instead.
Make it so Germans and soviets don't both basically hit the same timing if they go four units tech or make it easier to get tech buildings (T1 and T2) before 4 cons for soviets and soviets will be fine.
At the end of the day con spam is completely one dimensional and you pretty much know what is coming and it is just a race to see who gets tanks first. soviets can mix in a doctrinal unit like guards, shocks, 120mm instead of getting a 5th squad, but really getting anything out of your buildings before hitting t3 make any sense compared to the above options because it is likely to be countered as soon as it hits the field, and even if it isn't countered. Rarely does it have much more impact then adding another con squad or geting a doctianl unit instead.
Make it so Germans and soviets don't both basically hit the same timing if they go four units tech or make it easier to get tech buildings (T1 and T2) before 4 cons for soviets and soviets will be fine.
 | Playercard of RtN.Con | |||||||||||||||||||
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14 Oct 2013, 06:09 AM
#46
Posts: 747
OP is biased. Soviet units are not analogue to German.
This. Most players just don't understand that the soviet faction needs to be played differently.
Too often they just copy / paste their german play and then cry because it's not working...
14 Oct 2013, 06:13 AM
#47
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
it doesn't make a difference if he answers. you will just ignore it and repeat the same thing over and over again. is closing your ears another skill you learn from school?
Whats the point in discussion if you don't reciprocate answers to the other persons questions? They are expressed as a query for information and elaboration on the other persons position.
You are completely wrong. If he answers, I will not ignore them. But he didn't.
False accusation.
I haven't closed my ears to any answer. There hasn't even been an answer yet, so how can I have closed my ears to it.
Also I'd appreciate if you stop piggybacking your personal antipathy towards me into discussions in which you are not related and to which you have no part.
I was asking him specific questions, and expecting (reasonably and perfectly normally) answers to those questions. There is nothing remotely wrong with that.
He has chosen not to answer. I accepted that for what that is. Has nothing to do with you, nor is there any constructive need for you to try and jump into that when it has nothing to do with you.
Kindly stop derailing with your personal issues towards me, with false accusations.
14 Oct 2013, 06:16 AM
#48
Posts: 531
The problem with soviets currently is that con spam is the only effective build they can do at the highest level. This is countered by ostruppen tech builds (haven't played any since the patch but they where last patch) and assgrens; as well as just good German play.
At the end of the day con spam is completely one dimensional and you pretty much know what is coming and it is just a race to see who gets tanks first. soviets can mix in a doctrinal unit like guards, shocks, 120mm instead of getting a 5th squad, but really getting anything out of your buildings before hitting t3 make any sense compared to the above options because it is likely to be countered as soon as it hits the field, and even if it isn't countered. Rarely does it have much more impact then adding another con squad or geting a doctianl unit instead.
Make it so Germans and soviets don't both basically hit the same timing if they go four units tech or make it easier to get tech buildings (T1 and T2) before 4 cons for soviets and soviets will be fine.
thanks tons con, this is pretty much what i was trying to say
what soviet players open with: conscipts
what german players have to open with, assault grens, mg42's, grens, osttruppen, pioneers
14 Oct 2013, 06:23 AM
#49
Posts: 135
The problem with soviets currently is that con spam is the only effective build they can do at the highest level. This is countered by ostruppen tech builds (haven't played any since the patch but they where last patch) and assgrens; as well as just good German play.
At the end of the day con spam is completely one dimensional and you pretty much know what is coming and it is just a race to see who gets tanks first. soviets can mix in a doctrinal unit like guards, shocks, 120mm instead of getting a 5th squad, but really getting anything out of your buildings before hitting t3 make any sense compared to the above options because it is likely to be countered as soon as it hits the field, and even if it isn't countered. Rarely does it have much more impact then adding another con squad or geting a doctianl unit instead.
Make it so Germans and soviets don't both basically hit the same timing if they go four units tech or make it easier to get tech buildings (T1 and T2) before 4 cons for soviets and soviets will be fine.
Yeah I think this is the worst part of playing soviet. The game only gets interesting after the first 3 or so minutes when you choose t1 or t2. It's not a balance concern for me as much as one of entertainment.
Making t1 or t2 come sooner will introduce balance issues which will need to be corrected, but overall I think the game will be better for it.
Other than that I don't really have any issues with going soviet.
@OP you would have saved a lot of confusion if you didn't talk about late game units in your post.
"The devil is not as terrible as he is painted" - Joseph Stalin, 1941 in reference to the German war machine.
14 Oct 2013, 07:24 AM
#50
Posts: 531
edited OP to make my point heard better
14 Oct 2013, 17:18 PM
#51
Posts: 50
Yeah I think this is the worst part of playing soviet. The game only gets interesting after the first 3 or so minutes when you choose t1 or t2. It's not a balance concern for me as much as one of entertainment.
Making t1 or t2 come sooner will introduce balance issues which will need to be corrected, but overall I think the game will be better for it.
Other than that I don't really have any issues with going soviet.
@OP you would have saved a lot of confusion if you didn't talk about late game units in your post.
i dont agree that it will make balance issues. Even right now you can always chose to make a t2 or t1 building off the bat with soviet, but if you chose to do that you are PUNISHED with having to wait over a minute for the building to finish.
If the building finished much faster like germans, than I do not think that it would have much an effect on balance at all, other than maybe making scout cars cost more fuel. But grens come standard with a counter to those scout cars which already come out very early anyway.
16 Oct 2013, 06:34 AM
#52
Posts: 954
the MP cost and population of combat engineer should be the same as a pioneer, combat engineer can't do more than a pioneer, and they can't build bunkers.
Conscript should get a DP-28 upgrade for like 30 munition each to scale up in med game, like buids either T3 or T4 building to get access to it.
OP is not biased, the new commer dev who design these two faction kinda have this trend. The ostheer tends to be everything a little improvement plus a giant leap forward of the fantasy German tank performances, I think everybody attended both alpha and beta will agree with me.
vCOH a grenedier is a T2 unit and LMG42 is a T3 upgrade, US rifle man can rape VG in close combat and the BAR/pieapple/stickbomb can scale up the RM to the end of the game, PZIV in vCOH is a good tank, but 2 cromwell can rape a PZIV in the front, and 3 cromwell can take down a Panther tank with no losses, not to mention the firefly.
The tiger tank in vCOH is exaggerated in combat performance, but you ends up only having one.
but things in COH2? Meh....... Panther rapes every tank, Tiger rapes every tank , T-34/76 loss to a PZIV horrifically, T-34/85 which cost 760MP/260FU is individually inferior to a PZIV, and laughably out gun by every german tank.
This Retarded tank balance lasts from alpha to current stage, I'm already doubting their efficiency to balancing the game since open beta.
code belongs to Tuvok
Conscript should get a DP-28 upgrade for like 30 munition each to scale up in med game, like buids either T3 or T4 building to get access to it.
OP is not biased, the new commer dev who design these two faction kinda have this trend. The ostheer tends to be everything a little improvement plus a giant leap forward of the fantasy German tank performances, I think everybody attended both alpha and beta will agree with me.
vCOH a grenedier is a T2 unit and LMG42 is a T3 upgrade, US rifle man can rape VG in close combat and the BAR/pieapple/stickbomb can scale up the RM to the end of the game, PZIV in vCOH is a good tank, but 2 cromwell can rape a PZIV in the front, and 3 cromwell can take down a Panther tank with no losses, not to mention the firefly.
The tiger tank in vCOH is exaggerated in combat performance, but you ends up only having one.
but things in COH2? Meh....... Panther rapes every tank, Tiger rapes every tank , T-34/76 loss to a PZIV horrifically, T-34/85 which cost 760MP/260FU is individually inferior to a PZIV, and laughably out gun by every german tank.
This Retarded tank balance lasts from alpha to current stage, I'm already doubting their efficiency to balancing the game since open beta.
Code
pre 20/08 patch
67.6 69.4 68.0 60.1
70.9 71.2 75.0 75.1
pre 10/09 patch
67 68.8 67.5 60.2
71.9 72.6 76.2 76.2
12/09
67.1 68.9 67.5 60.3
72.2 72.6 76.1 76.2
16/09
67.3 68.8 67.7 60.3
72.1 72.8 76.2 76.4
24/09
67.8 68.9 68.1 60.6
72.1 72.8 76.7 76.4
26/09
67.7 69.6 67.8 60.7
72.5 72.9 76.6 76.5
02/10
67.6 69.3 67.5 60.4
72.1 73.1 76.4 76.6
10/10
67.4 69.2 68.0 60.5
72.4 72.9 75.8 76.7
15/10
67.4 69.4 67.8 61.2
72.2 73.1 76.0 77.0
code belongs to Tuvok
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
16 Oct 2013, 07:33 AM
#53
2 
Posts: 1108
Panther rapes every tank, Tiger rapes every tank , T-34/76 loss to a PZIV horrifically, T-34/85 which cost 760MP/260FU is individually inferior to a PZIV, and laughably out gun by every german tank.
This Retarded tank balance lasts from alpha to current stage, I'm already doubting their efficiency to balancing the game since open beta.
yogi bear this is ridiculous and pls stop whining. They buffed the T-34/76 a lot,the russian tanks are kinda spammable and they increased the cost for ost tanks(MP)
2 T-34/76 can rape a PZIV in the front, and 3 T-34/76 can take down a Panther tank with no losses
| Playercard of MoerserKarL | |||||||||||||||||||
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16 Oct 2013, 07:43 AM
#54
Posts: 954
yogi bear this is ridiculous and pls stop whining. They buffed the T-34/76 a lot,the russian tanks are kinda spammable and they increased the cost for ost tanks(MP)
2 T-34/76 can rape a PZIV in the front, and 3 T-34/76 can take down a Panther tank with no losses
please stop trolling, seriously,
They reduce the PZIV cost from previous patch, and they reduce the fuel cost of the Panther with a rise in Man power, please don't be such cherry picking. German-only player please stop calling other ridiculous.
PZIV finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*5.825/(95.6522%)=24.3591sec
T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV: (640/120)*4.875/(50%)=52sec
2*T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV=52/2=26sec
Panther finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*6.575/(100%)=26.3sec
T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: (960/120)*4.875/(80/270)=131.625sec
3*T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: 131.625/3=43.875sec
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
16 Oct 2013, 08:38 AM
#55
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
please stop trolling, seriously,
They reduce the PZIV cost from previous patch, and they reduce the fuel cost of the Panther with a rise in Man power, please don't be such cherry picking. German-only player please stop calling other ridiculous.
PZIV finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*5.825/(95.6522%)=24.3591sec
T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV: (640/120)*4.875/(50%)=52sec
2*T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV=52/2=26sec
if it takes 24 seconds to kill the first t34, the second t34 will be able to kill the p4. youre even assuming the t34s fight from the front, which is a dumb idea for the soviet player, but it doesnt matter because theyll still win. so hes really not trolling. also, p4 cost hasnt changed since june, so not sure what youre talking about.
Panther finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*6.575/(100%)=26.3sec
T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: (960/120)*4.875/(80/270)=131.625sec
3*T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: 131.625/3=43.875sec
again youre assuming 3 tanks fight from the front of a panther. any decent soviet would never do that. all it takes is 1 to ram and the other 2 will be able to finish it. your numbers are still just pointless theory crafting in a vacuum.
16 Oct 2013, 08:50 AM
#56
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedThose stats you provide, Ugbear, are imo, fine.
The slight inefficiency in AT is offset by better AI, in the nominal T34.
2xT34s counter a PIV adequately, at cost, considering that better AI function.
2xT34s taking the same time to kill a PIV, as it takes 1 PIV to kill 1 T34, is fine.
If you cant agree with that, then its your own unrealistic expectations that are the problem, not balance.
Including Panther figures, althoug informative, is of almost zero relevance, unless you are implying that T3 AI impetus T34s should somehow be anything other than an annoyance to a T4 AT impetus Tank.
None of this denies the need of T34 for a universal AT upgrade at muni cost though.
In which case, AI would be reduced, and reciprocally the T34s AT increased to a more sustainable margin of attrition for upgunned T34s engaging armor.
The slight inefficiency in AT is offset by better AI, in the nominal T34.
2xT34s counter a PIV adequately, at cost, considering that better AI function.
2xT34s taking the same time to kill a PIV, as it takes 1 PIV to kill 1 T34, is fine.
If you cant agree with that, then its your own unrealistic expectations that are the problem, not balance.
Including Panther figures, althoug informative, is of almost zero relevance, unless you are implying that T3 AI impetus T34s should somehow be anything other than an annoyance to a T4 AT impetus Tank.
None of this denies the need of T34 for a universal AT upgrade at muni cost though.
In which case, AI would be reduced, and reciprocally the T34s AT increased to a more sustainable margin of attrition for upgunned T34s engaging armor.
16 Oct 2013, 09:17 AM
#57
Posts: 1439
I think T34/76 is like it is right now due to stupid ram ability.
I'd gladly see them removing ram completely and doing T34 decent tank.
T34-85 should be buffed as right now there is no point of saving for one as you get better options plus IS-2 is a must in a team/longer game as it's only answer for a Tiger. SU-85 are too risky now due to nerfs and blitzkrieg.
I'd gladly see them removing ram completely and doing T34 decent tank.
T34-85 should be buffed as right now there is no point of saving for one as you get better options plus IS-2 is a must in a team/longer game as it's only answer for a Tiger. SU-85 are too risky now due to nerfs and blitzkrieg.
17 Oct 2013, 21:45 PM
#58
Posts: 409
PZIV finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*5.825/(95.6522%)=24.3591sec
T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV: (640/120)*4.875/(50%)=52sec
2*T-34/76 finishing off a PZIV=52/2=26sec
Panther finishing off a T-34/76: (640/160)*6.575/(100%)=26.3sec
T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: (960/120)*4.875/(80/270)=131.625sec
3*T-34/76 finishing off a Panther: 131.625/3=43.875sec
Yes, absolutely, because CoH is a turn-based tactics game where units just slug it out 1v1 without being able to do anything else until either side dies.
Next thing you know we'll be playing it on the DS.
17 Oct 2013, 23:54 PM
#59
Posts: 210
The units that the soviet's can build VERY early game:
Conscripts: (harassing light infantry and a way to reinforce heavier troops in the field, bad against other infantry, tanks, light vehicles
Combat Engineers: (4 man squad armed with rifles, can plant demos and place mines, lose against all German units bar pioneers at long range, same price as conscripts.)
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The units that the Germans can build VERY early game:
Grenadiers: (infantry deigned to counter other infantry, can be upgraded with MG42's to kill a conscript a second, same price as conscripts, and will win in 1v1 combat against them with moderate to no losses)
MG42: (instapins infantry out of cover, forcing them to retreat same price as grens and can only be tackled with flanks)
German Mortar: (fast firing, accurate, and kills 3-4 squad members on a successful hit, same price as grens)
German Sniper: (armor shrugs off all shots apart from really lucky hits, 1 hit kills all infantry)
Osttruppen: (weak infantry with the ability to kill scout cars with ease, loses against all other infantry bar engineer units
Assault Grens (fast firing, fast moving, shock troops designed to get early map control with ease, wins against all soviet units bar DP upgraded guards, and shock troops.)
Look me in the eyes and tell me the germans don't have a clear, undisputed advantage in 1v1.
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198016893993
Proof i'm not a soviet fanboy.
i'm just a concerned player that has gone down almost 1000 ladder positions since these last few updates on the soviet side.
EDIT: i listed every unit in COH2, people thought that was too much, shorted it to early game units to make my point heard better
18 Oct 2013, 00:05 AM
#60
Posts: 210
The units that the soviet's can build VERY early game:
Conscripts: (harassing light infantry and a way to reinforce heavier troops in the field, bad against other infantry, tanks, light vehicles
Combat Engineers: (4 man squad armed with rifles, can plant demos and place mines, lose against all German units bar pioneers at long range, same price as conscripts.)
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The units that the Germans can build VERY early game:
Grenadiers: (infantry deigned to counter other infantry, can be upgraded with MG42's to kill a conscript a second, same price as conscripts, and will win in 1v1 combat against them with moderate to no losses)
MG42: (instapins infantry out of cover, forcing them to retreat same price as grens and can only be tackled with flanks)
German Mortar: (fast firing, accurate, and kills 3-4 squad members on a successful hit, same price as grens)
German Sniper: (armor shrugs off all shots apart from really lucky hits, 1 hit kills all infantry)
Osttruppen: (weak infantry with the ability to kill scout cars with ease, loses against all other infantry bar engineer units
Assault Grens (fast firing, fast moving, shock troops designed to get early map control with ease, wins against all soviet units bar DP upgraded guards, and shock troops.)
Look me in the eyes and tell me the germans don't have a clear, undisputed advantage in 1v1.
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198016893993
Proof i'm not a soviet fanboy.
i'm just a concerned player that has gone down almost 1000 ladder positions since these last few updates on the soviet side.
EDIT: i listed every unit in COH2, people thought that was too much, shorted it to early game units to make my point heard better
Yeah some what agree,soviet teching makes it hard to backtech or build in order which makes them less flexible. Plus build time are so slow. Dev need to make buildings cheaper at least t1 to t3 with a building or tech upgrade before building t3( some like the americans in vcoh) to make up the cost
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