Mirror Match

absolutely not... either it IS in automatch, or it ISN'T... dividing the automatchers even further is bullshit, also, how many ladders do you want to have? 4 ladders for 2 factions?

There should be a checkbox where you can enable/disable mirror opponents. There is only one ladder and one pool of players. All it does is determine the available opponents, just like in CoH.

Either way, if a lot of compstompers vote (or whatever, maybe just whine on the official forums) Relic can't just ignore them, and how will they know who's a compstomper?

They won't know who's a compstomper, of course. But I never said they should ignore compstompers, I just said that if it came down to popular vote, CoH would be 3v3 annihilation matches on The Scheldt with tons of artillery and computers playing the Axis so that everyone can go British or artillery side of American Infantry doctrine and spam howitzers.

I'm not saying Relic shouldn't do that - I'm just saying that competitive players like one thing, and the majority of CoH players like something else. Even if everone's not a compstomper, competitive 1v1 ladder matches are hardly the most popular thing for lots of RTS players because they are intense, high pressure sorts of things.

c0mpl3x1ty wrote a great guide about The Scheldt in fact! And Inverse made some video guides. This was way back in 2011, like end of March/early April or something. And even before that it was Vire River Valley in vCoH that filled the same niche.

What does this mean?

just saying no brits(probably) or does this mean there wont be mirror matches?

In the context of the question I assume that the tweet is just saying that there are only two sides to play in MP.

There should be a checkbox where you can enable/disable mirror opponents. There is only one ladder and one pool of players. All it does is determine the available opponents, just like in CoH.

what i meant was "rank page" or whatever you want to call it. since you obviously can't compare someone who plays mirror to someone who doesn't. so you would need 2 wehrmacht "ladders", one for non-mirrors, one that includes mirrors. what about someone who plays a few mirror matches every now and then? which ladder would he belong to?

no, doesn't make sense... either include mirror matchups in automatch or don't. no half-assed things.

coh took 6 years to reach 2.602 balance..and still STAGS MVGame.

GOOD LUCK trying to balance 5 different matchups.

not to forget 14 commanders up against each other.

Also maps esp 2v2 mirrors configuration.

This Mirrors thing will end like COHO. To balance one thing they will buff/nerf other factions causing more RAGE.

what i meant was "rank page" or whatever you want to call it. since you obviously can't compare someone who plays mirror to someone who doesn't. so you would need 2 wehrmacht "ladders", one for non-mirrors, one that includes mirrors. what about someone who plays a few mirror matches every now and then? which ladder would he belong to?

no, doesn't make sense... either include mirror matchups in automatch or don't. no half-assed things.

But the mirror matcher won't play mirror matches all the time. Does it really matter that much that someone sometimes faces the same faction instead of the opposing one? It's the quality of the opponent that counts, not the faction he or she is playing. The latter will never be 100% fair anyway. One highly ranked player may meet only easy opponents, another one may meet all the pros, depending on when they're playing.

The real comparison and test of skill is tournaments, not the ladder.

If mirror matching is "optional" on the ladder then it will obviously be better to turn it off. They need to just say up or down and stick to it.

I'm against mirrors FWIW.

No to mirror matches.

I am all for them , if i can turn them off and if they dont balance the game around them too much symmetry (despite commanders or doctrines ) , if i wanted that i d play another game (generals 2 is around the corner and mirror matches almost fit over there ). Also on them making the game more competitive i disaggree the only thing they would achieve is dumb down competition and create exclussive wehr or russian or american players . But if someone wants to play that kind of match who am i to say no ?

Very much in favour of mirror matches.

Disappointed to find so many otherwise clever people not recognising this is not so much desirable as essential. It will lead to a much better, more balanced and, this is important, less homogenised game.

Something for you 'reality' buffs to ponder. During the battle for Stalingrad there were division sized units fighting for the opposite side. The Russians because they could not return to their own kines without being shot for surrendering in the first place. The Germans because they could not escape and would starve to death in the cold otherwise.

On a lighter note. It also allows Relic to sell DLC which helps identify and personalise Armies without effecting gameplay.

As a community we need to get behind this initiative and help give Relic the confidence to follow through.

Well put! Initially, I wasn't for mirror matches, but I'm starting to see how nearly everything but realism speaks for it. I'm sure, if implemented properly, it'll be a true asset to the game.

Very much in favour of mirror matches.

It will lead to a much better

Well we certainly hope so, but that conclusion's based off nothing. If they're balanced, varied, and fun, then yes it will lead to a better game. Otherwise it won't.

more balanced

Does enabling mirror matches make it easier to balance the German/Soviet matchup? Yes? How? No? Then it's not more balanced except now there's the addition of having to balance mirrors as well. One might even say this makes it 'less balanced'.

and, this is important, less homogenised game.

Again, this is only a plus if the mirror matches are interesting.

If mirrors are exciting and fun to play then absolutely put them in the game, but don't put them in just for the sake of putting them in. It needs to be just as solid a matchup as a mixed army game. At this early stage it seems silly to be dead-set on having or not having them yet; we just don't know what they're like.

Well put! Initially, I wasn't for mirror matches, but I'm starting to see how nearly everything but realism speaks for it. I'm sure, if implemented properly, it'll be a true asset to the game.

I'm for realism, but my main thing against mirrors is the balance issue. What I love about Coh is it's asimetrical balance, and with mirrors i just don't see that kind of thing anymore.

People who are against CoH2 mirror matches on basis of how CoH mirror matches would work; you realize that the factions in CoH were designed without mirror matches in mind? If Relic were to have the option of mirror matches, I can assure you that they would put some more thought into that aspect than they did in CoH, where mirror matches were a complete non-issue. "Ermagerd think about wehr vs wehr" won't necessarily be the same thing, because CoH2 isn't the same game.

Also, what's the problem with mirrors in general? Take SC2; Terran mirrors were considered one of the deepest matchups in that game. There are bad examples as well(DoW1, Necron mirrors. Ugh), obviously, but pretending that there doesn't exist dumb asymmetrical matchups can only be done by someone who's never experienced a CoH match with brits in them.

Also, balance won't be an issue for mirror match-ups. Design might be an issue, but balance, nah. If the match-up has overpowered units and your opponent spams them, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. This scenario is, obviously, bad design and not fun to play, and should thus be avoided. But the neat thing about mirror matchups is that they're always balanced, since every player has the same tools available. And having mirror matchups isn't going to change the fact that asymmetrical balance will still exist in the non-mirror matchups.

asymmetrical balance will still exist in the non-mirror matchups.

It'll actually be better too. Top players have a bigger say in in 'balance' issues. So the game inevitably becomes more homogenised. They like to have similar vs similar. Reflect on how vCoH 'balance' evolved. The factions became more and more similar. With mirror matches this is less likely to happen.

Sure. Wehr vs Wehr would be less than optimum (current Wehr only). It would still be far better than US vs PE or even Wehr vs Britzzzz.

We need to get behind this. It's in our interest. All of us.

Not really. Only in the interest of a few. And several top players have actually spoken out against mirror matches, ergo they don't want similar vs similar. Hell i could point at the vast sea of mods which add in a lot of things. but never mirror matches.

All in all, i only see a small group of people demanding mirror matches in.

And if anything. Mirror matches will force the game to become more homogenized as things that might otherwise work in a regular matchup might not work in a mirror match and thus for mirror matches, would have to be cut.

Largely it all comes down to some ethereal argument for balance.

Scalable Volks, cheap para re-inforce, ranger body armour, snipers shooting not in cover, Puma upgun at tier 3, I could go on. These are all examples of player requested changes that have taken the individuality out of the game in the interests of so called balance.

Without mirror matches there is an inevitable pressure to homogenise the different factions. It becomes like vs like over time. The game is better when factions are different and individual units have specialised functions. That way it is a real RTS. It's strategy and tactics rather than brute strength and ignorance. He who thinks quickest and anticipates better has an advantage.

I have already pointed out above that mirror matches on the Eastern front do not contradict realism. German divisions fought German divisions. Russian divisions fought Russian divisions. That was a reality. Give them different uniforms (DLC without affecting balance) and we are set fair.

If you are not yet convinced at least support mirrors in the beta. Give it a chance and see.

Hell i could point at the vast sea of mods which add in a lot of things. but never mirror matches.

That wasn't because people didn't want to add mirror matches in their mods, it was because it wasn't possible to do in a mod.

The best argument against mirrors really is that if the mirror match-up turns out to be boring(again, necron mirrors hi2u), you run the choice of leaving it as it is and thus damaging the game overall, or redesigning some aspect of the faction, which might have result in collateral damage towards the non-mirror matchup. However, both of these things are kind of big "ifs", and depend solely on how well the match-ups are designed.
That being said, if the mirrors turn out to be dumb, I'm completely in favor of removing them, but I don't think mirrors are an inherently bad idea, as some people seem to think.

I'd like for you to actually fully explain in detail how any of those things take the individuality out of the game.

I mean from what i can see theyøre just some random things and then you go "well would you look at that, that justifies mirror matches"

I mean i don't really see how Volksgrenadiers stand out less from the Americans, i don't see how the Puma upgun in any way achieves the same. So i think you're going to have to explain that one in more detail,

And German divisions did not fight German divisions, nor did russian divisions fight russian divisions. Their were russian troops and german troops fighting for the others, certainly. But under different organisation and sometimes with different equipment. Never mind that the Russian ones were quite relegated to rear area duties or were sent to Normandy to guard the beaches.

So not really an argument for realism there to be honest.

And i am not going to support mirrors in the beta. I tried it in the alpha. It was worse than playing vs the brits. Absolutely boring. I ended up just leaving the matches and hope that i actually got a proper match-up.

@Naeras: Then what about the mirror match mod ? The one which never saw popularity. I mean that one rather counters the whole it can't be done. So my argument stands. If there had been some greater desire for mirror matches, then it would have found an outlet in the modding community. Just like the ones who wanted the eastern front did, or north africa, or a game without base building, or something more contemporary in terms of combat.. Yet it never did.