KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

Elephant/Jagdtiger

Doctrinal solution to a non-doctrinal problem.

Doctrinal solution to a doctrinal problem.

Doctrines exist specifically for that.
If you can't handle(as in lack of skill, because tools are there for all factions now) something, pick a doctrine that'll make it easy for you.

The problem is not simply the performance of Churchill but the performance of allied armor/TD and infatry.

Armour, TD's and AND infantry are the problem now?

That's a very generalist statement XD

Armour, TD's and AND infantry are the problem now?

That's a very generalist statement XD

You're living under a rock?
Allies op, if you think otherwise, you're a fanboy.

Also, I find it hilariously funny that in all this theorycraft scenarios allies always have maxed pop cap of well balanced army, while axis always seem to have just 2 units, that happen to be the same units, with no support and at least 1 is never microed.

It comes out almost as axis player do not know how to counter specific combinations with the tools they have and instead of having diverse armies themselves, they always resort to spam and if they have more then 1 unit type, these units are never less then 3 sectors apart from each other, so supporting themselves is never an option.

Armour, TD's and AND infantry are the problem now?

That's a very generalist statement XD

None of above performance on its own is a problem. Their combination is.

A combined army of well used units is a problem?

Shit son. Better nerf that. Remive everything but grens and conscripts, game fixed.

A combined army of well used units is a problem?

Shit son. Better nerf that. Remive everything but grens and conscripts, game fixed.

It is when a combined army of well sued Ostheer units can not deal with less combined army of allied unit using less micro.

It is when a combined army of well sued Ostheer units can not deal with less combined army of allied unit using less micro.

That's an L2P issue, situated between keyboard and chair.

Be it build choices or micro or use of units, there's no Magic Brit Bullet for easy wins by picking Anvil.

That's an L2P issue, situated between keyboard and chair.

Be it build choices or micro or use of units, there's no Magic Brit Bullet for easy wins by picking Anvil.

Your entitled to your opinion.

But this clearly not a player issue. Churchill is simply op currently.

But this clearly not a player issue. Churchill is simply op currently.

That's also an opinion, unless you're hiding some relic metrics on use and efficiency of a unit and if you do, share it for only that way it'll stop being opinion.

Until then, its just another opinion you're fully entitled to.

That's also an opinion, unless you're hiding some relic metrics on use and efficiency of a unit and if you do, share it for only that way it'll stop being opinion.

Until then, its just another opinion you're fully entitled to.

It is refreshing to see that you have finally started respecting others people opinion instead of calling them "noobs" and "wehraboos", you have a long way ahead of you but it is start. Keep it up.

Have a nice day.

If you play Wher - Stug spam works wonders vs Churchills and its cost efficient.

That's also an opinion, unless you're hiding some relic metrics on use and efficiency of a unit and if you do, share it for only that way it'll stop being opinion.

Until then, its just another opinion you're fully entitled to.

katitof what's ur opinion on the chirchuil ? do fell it's fair for it to have such an high rear armor ? with so much hp ?

katitof what's ur opinion on the chirchuil ? do fell it's fair for it to have such an high rear armor ? with so much hp ?

Yes, because its very slow vehicle that arrives very late, has very weak gun for the price and timing, slows to extreme crawl when fausted/drives over a mine, can't chase any other vehicle in game and blocks apparently overpowered comet and super extremely useful and strong vehicle snare(according to certain indivudual here) while, with the repair nerf to heavy sappers in the past, stays a long time in repairs.

Its 240 frontal armor isn't something hard to penetrate, a pair of stugs and an ATG will wreck it fast.
Just don't use 2 next to each other, completely unsupported by any other unit paks, because it can kill them.

Its a late game damage sponge tank.
It means it needs to soak in damage.
If it was supposed to be frail from any side, it would be by now.

You're not supposed to kill everything by parking P4 at its back.

Yes, because its very slow vehicle that arrives very late, has very weak gun for the price and timing, slows to extreme crawl when fausted/drives over a mine, can't chase any other vehicle in game and blocks apparently overpowered comet and super extremely useful and strong vehicle snare(according to certain indivudual here) while, with the repair nerf to heavy sappers in the past, stays a long time in repairs.

Its 240 frontal armor isn't something hard to penetrate, a pair of stugs and an ATG will wreck it fast.
Just don't use 2 next to each other, completely unsupported by any other unit paks, because it can kill them.

Its a late game damage sponge tank.
It means it needs to soak in damage.
If it was supposed to be frail from any side, it would be by now.

You're not supposed to kill everything by parking P4 at its back.

that's fair but it has more armor than super heavy in the rear while having comparable frontal armor, and everytinh should have a counter, i think rear armor for vehicle should be the universal counter , i mean the whole point of COH2 is using the enemy weakness aganist them and catching them out of position(that's why we have arc ofr mg and team weapons and units needs to turn unlike say starcraft or age of empire)

snip.

Some misconceptions.

1- USF roflstomped OH, so they gave OH an MG42 at T0 and mp to handle them. Nerf of RET lead to basically just rifle spam strats with 0 possibility of any variation early on because tech is too slow. Mortar was design to offer an alternative.

2- Penals were the original only squad which had a flamethrower which never exploded. Flamethrower crit was removed couple of years after launch for all other units. Penals either saw little/niche use when they were a 360mp squad with G43 like DPS on their SVTs and basically no use when they were made into 270mp units. Penals were made the defacto unit for Soviets, when you basically removed Maxims from the game and Conscripts were stripped of their cheese abilities and their muni cost increased, in favour of stats boost which never manage to cut it to viable state.

3- Anything that screams cheese has been nerfed or changed to be harder to pull off. They no longer are IWIN buttons on their own.

4- Volks shrecks were not nerfed, just plained removed when the faction received a complete rework like no other faction received. Double sturm has always been a niche opening, either post or pre rework. Obers saw plenty of use when they were completely broken and after that it has always been an issue of having them arrive way too late into the game.

katitof what's ur opinion on the chirchuil ? do fell it's fair for it to have such an high rear armor ? with so much hp ?

I think the current HP/armor values are there to keep it from either been an RNG machine with higher armor, while still been a soak sponge which needs to keep been repaired constantly (weakness)

Through the years the consensus on the unit has always been: xp fodder and useless unit which can't do shit cause it's slow and the cannon does nothing or they somehow achieved critical mass of units which lets them roll over slowly while not been able to kill them down.

You could reduce the armor (rear, maybe front) for a nerf and exchange HP with damage reduction for equal HP pool as a buff.

that's fair but it has more armor than super heavy in the rear while having comparable frontal armor, and everytinh should have a counter, i think rear armor for vehicle should be the universal counter , i mean the whole point of COH2 is using the enemy weakness aganist them and catching them out of position

That's the thing: it doesn't have comparable front armour to the super heavy tanks. Its front armour is barely better than an OKW Panzer IV, which has 234.

All the Churchill's abilities are geared towards close combat: short range grenades, SMGs on the side, smoke emitters originally designed to make a pathway for infantry. Therefore it sacrifices high frontal armour in favour of high rear armour.



What makes it so tough is the metric shit-ton of hit points it has.

There is a very simple fix to damage sponge vehicles like the KV1 and Churchill which quite elegantly gives them a clear role and clear counters.

First of all, they should only be able to use HE shells, so that they are only useful vs infantry and support weapons. They should not be able to fight tanks. Tanks should be a hard counter to them. Jagtigers/Elephants are not a counter, they are in super niche doctrines, unless you want to put the churchill in a doctrine in which case the convo changes.

This solution should be accompanied by a buff to Axis td penetration, just like allied TDs started penetrating axis armour like crazy, ie the Tiger. This way Tank destroyers hard counter heavy tanks, while these tanks are useful to hard counter support weapons and infantry.

That's an L2P issue, situated between keyboard and chair.

Be it build choices or micro or use of units, there's no Magic Brit Bullet for easy wins by picking Anvil.

Rude

Since when are you allowed to bully others katitof like? For serious, you started using irony to debate a possible balance issue and after vipper explained his point, you just level it up to a L2P.

Maybe he is on. Point and you just can't deny that

Imho, chirchuils tanks are great, I just can't say they are OP, but as other sponge tanks, they always get a 'extra' function rather than the one they are meant. It's the critical mass role. In other words if you are dumb enough to let your opponent get two churchill's, it's almost game over. They both need a royal amount of countering to stop them. Team games can exploit that. Most tanks hardly can achieve that. That's why their gun can't be that good

Other than that the tank is fine.