KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

I am curious what form of AT you all are using against Churchill? Any of you guys try the combined arms approach? Churchill is a late game unit which requires tech plus 160 fuel. By that time, you should have a substantial amount of AT.

I am curious what form of AT you all are using against Churchill? Any of you guys try the combined arms approach? Churchill is a late game unit which requires tech plus 160 fuel. By that time, you should have a substantial amount of AT.

Going by the descriptions of what that churchill apparently does, its a single Pak/Rak and a volk/gren using a faust, but faust is used first and PaK/RaK isn't even pointing at church until its on top of it.

Still, for me it is a problem of outrange and counter problems.

PaKs outrange tanks and tank-hunters... or not.

I wrote about that some years ago and it is still a thing.


- Panther, Jackson and Firefly should have 55-60 range.
- SU85 and Jagdpanzer4 should have range 60.
- StuG should have range 50.
- PaK40 should have range 62,5 (Ostheer should get option to destroy objects like UK)
- Zis etc. 60 range.

Jagdtiger, Elefant and ISU should get a range nerf too.

I would also like if PaK43 gets an emplacement and can't shoot through hit-blockers anymore.


With that changes it would be possible to counter heavies like all other fractions. By outranging them.



Edit: To be clear, it shouldn't be possible to push with a heavy while using tank-hunters in save distance.

I have to say I agree with further nerfs to rear armor on KT, KV-1 and Churchill down to panther or comet level for bringing common game mechanics in line

But at the same time can you imagine the axis freakout on the steam forum as KT recieved another nerf. It might go nuclear

A weak unit being nerfed further doesn't really change anything. Axis late game is all about Panthers anyway.

If you leave out the snares, yes, it can. Just tested it myself.

In reality the opponent would react to a Churchill charging their anti-tank guns, but it definitely can frontally charge and kill two AFK Pak guns.

Wow

I find it hilarious that heavy tanks which sole purpose is to soak damage are being complained about being able to soak damage.

Yes, these two are sturdy walls, but there isn't much coming from these walls back at you.

Actually, it seems like there is lots coming from those walls.

For the Churchill, it has Grenades, hull and coaxial MGs, A main gun with 10 more penetration, more AOE, and 20% less scatter, and magical “crew weapons” at vet 1

And we must not forget the KV-1’s OP MG in the back of the turret!

Its fine as is.

I disagree. It was fine.
Before major buff to TD and snares. There is no way panther can slug it out now.
Right now the front and rear armor are too high when its hp is already so high and with its fast turning and its gun is better than p4. Its simply too much for late game, especially those playing wehr.

I disagree. It was fine.
Before major buff to TD and snares. There is no way panther can slug it out now.
Right now the front and rear armor are too high when its hp is already so high and with its fast turning and its gun is better than p4. Its simply too much for late game, especially those playing wehr.

Elephant/Jagdtiger

The biggest problem is 1v1 in my opinion and especially vs wehr. The best tank combinations from ukf rivals the best ones from wehr. And until then they dominate wehr anyway. In larger games there are plenty of at so they are easyer to deal with

The Churchill is the most over performing tank in the game and to make matters even worse they have stock smoke as well which is well off and should be removed.

Nice theorycrafting. Let me join:

A Churchill drives up to 2 Pak40s cant decrew either with his main-gun and eats a total of 6 shots before getting both down with a grenade. Then a Grenadier fausts it and a Panther finishes it off with ease while the Churchill can´t penetrate it. Infantry sections are pinned from MG42 and the UKF AT-guns get forced to retreat by the Grenadiers. Therefore it is easy to counter the Churchill.

IMO this post sums up the thread for me. Basically it admits that to counter a churchill you need:

2 Paks =640 Manpower
Gren =240 Manpower
Panther =490? Manpower and 185? Fuel

A total of 1370 manpower, 185 fuel, and you have to work 4 units in near perfect unison to counter a single churchill while also sacrificing two weapon crews to boot. Good luck keeping up with the infantry side of things now that half your pop cap is tied up in strictly AT weapons.

I won't speak for OKW, but the Pak really needs a higher ROF, or a price and pop decrease. Yeah it's got great penetration, but it fires slowly, and allied mediums are all very fast. Meanwhile all the heavy's it faces have large health pools, and strong AI profiles.

If you remove the grenade from the Churchill or put it at vet 3 or something, then we're fine. It gets chewed up by double stugs pretty easily. It is only a nuisance when Jacksons or fireflys support it in team games. But that is the same for double Panther supported by gren lmg blob...

I won't speak for OKW, but the Pak really needs a higher ROF, or a price and pop decrease. Yeah it's got great penetration, but it fires slowly, and allied mediums are all very fast. Meanwhile all the heavy's it faces have large health pools, and strong AI profiles.

Good lord no.

Elephant/Jagdtiger

These are doctrine, they are late, takes up much popcap and really really slow to turn now, even then you need 5 shots to kill 1 churchill. Imagine Wehr player saving for panther against it...

The point is Churchill is overperforming now that it is very strongly supported by Allies buffed AT, i am coming from 2v2 player.

Churchill besides the smoke, still have auto repair! But Why?

The problem is not simply the performance of Churchill but the performance of allied armor/TD and infatry.

When playing as Ostheer one can invest a large part of his his army in AT and one can defend vs a Churchill but than he does not have enough AI to defend vs allied infatry and even worse does not have enough of army to push.

The original design of the game had allies superior infatry and Ostheer more durable armor with good vet bonuses.

Many weakness of faction have been remove while many of their strengths remain.

Currently allies have equally cost efficient armor, more cost efficient TD and superior infatry, leaving Osther to struggle or having to rely on a couple of doctrinal unit.

Dont forgot Allies have good arty. Hell Brit base arty is another low scatter accurate ones. I think same with Major Arty. And next patch, Calliope is even to arty Wehr out.

Yes Wehr design a bit broken now. Even their weapon teams are no longer the best to cover. Usf mortar is more accurate and reload faster for example.

Late game Wehr armor do not scale well to defeat those TD and high HP tanks like Churchill. I being asking for at least a HE round at vet1 to Panther and P4.

And add smoke to flame HT. It is crazy how USF clown car has faster speed and still have smoke and self repair, very durable. Little things that Wehr have trouble dealing with.

Dont forgot Allies have good arty. Hell Brit base arty is another low scatter accurate ones. I think same with Major Arty. And next patch, Calliope is even to arty Wehr out.

Yes Wehr design a bit broken now. Even their weapon teams are no longer the best to cover. Usf mortar is more accurate and reload faster for example.

Late game Wehr armor do not scale well to defeat those TD and high HP tanks like Churchill. I being asking for at least a HE round at vet1 to Panther and P4.

And add smoke to flame HT. It is crazy how USF clown car has faster speed and still have smoke and self repair, very durable. Little things that Wehr have trouble dealing with.

People should not have complained about smoke on rifles and had them removed. Though no one asked for the usf mortar, the prior change sparked usf using it.
The same with flamethrowers on penals, although they exploded more then other flamethrowers they still were deemed to powerful. And look at penals now.
Demo charge nerfed to near extiction. So whas twp.
Volks with shrecks rightly nerfed, but look at them now. Sturms and obers mostly underused now.

As for axis late game not scaling against td,s and high hp tanks. Well thats because the kt is non doc and was overused, deleting tanks and inf alike while bouncing off nearly every shot, exposing how ill equiped allies where to deal with it.
Hence td buffs and regular armour also paying the price.

Be careful what you wish for.

Besides tanking damage kv1 churchill etc have no real use. No one used them. They are not fast, there guns are terrible for heavy tanks. They are doctrinal or lock out other tanks.

The flametrack absolutely wrecks infantry and can easely chase them or run away from danger. Absolutly no need for smoke on that beast.

Anyone that thinks the FHT needs smoke very much does not have balance's best interests at heart.

Brit base arty

low scatter accurate

These 2 are mutually exclusive, pick one.