KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 09:26 AMVipper

And that does not justify having more rear armor than they do while having less frontal armor.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 09:26 AMVipper

Your claim that because a tank is label "heavy" it should win over a "medium" is simply flawed. Heavy tanks simpy not "hard" counters to mediums tanks.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 09:34 AMSander93

How exactly? All of those tanks have significantly better guns or frontal armor to protect themselves. If the Churchill was easily destroyed by a cheap flanking medium tank, no one would ever build it. Its survivability is literally all it has, compared to the doctrinal heavy tanks who all have significantly better offensive capabilities.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 09:34 AMSander93

Given the fact that the generalist heavy tanks KV-1 and Churchill will confidently win in the majority of fights versus the generalist medium tank P4J that costs approximately the same I'd say my point is pretty much proven, but yeah whatever I'm sure it's "simply flawed" for unknown reasons.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 08:40 AMVipper

It nice theory but it also applies to Tiger, KT, IS-2 which are heavy tanks and Elephant, JT, ISU-152 and all of these unit have (some significantly) lower rear armor than Churchill.

The claim about Rock-paper-scissors does not apply between PzIV and Churchill these unit do not hard counter each other.

On the other hand a PzIV managing to flank a Churchill should at least have penetration chance advantage over it.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 12:02 PMKatitof

All of these units are also limited to one and have (some significantly) higher frontal armor then churchill.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 12:02 PMKatitof

Church can be knocked down frontally by ATGs or StuGs/JP4s, others you've mentioned are at best hard to counter frontally, at worst impossible to(ele/JT) and to keep balance, they still need a weakness.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 12:02 PMKatitof

Churchill weakness is its very slow speed and while good, hardly excelling frontal armor for a heavy tank.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 12:02 PMKatitof

I'm quite positive that if there is a churchil around, P4 can't do much about it.
And just because it won't die to it, doesn't mean its not a hardcounter, infantry escape from being hardcountered all the time, I'll never understand why people think that if vehicle isn't destroyed in first engagement, then it doesn't face a hard counter.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 12:02 PMKatitof

Why? Churchill literally can't contest anything above P4 with its gun(and even that is hard vs vet2 ost P4 or OKW P4) and it costs MUCH more then P4.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 13:03 PMWingZero

I personally dont have a problem with Churchills. The Stug spam or JagdPanzer can easily do good amount of damage against slow Churchills and easy to faust after. Kv-1 is a complete joke and I never ever worry about this tank.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 13:07 PMVipper

Well according to Sander93 the Kv-1 has around 85% chance to win vs the OKW PzVI and that make it hardly a joke.

Jump back to quoted post20 May 2019, 15:36 PMRollingStone

Russian KV-series are fine(totaly not biased because of nationality )

Churchills are, on the other hand, OP. While KV have higher armor, Churchill have 600 hp more(800 vs 1400 if believe to coh2db) and better gun in terms of AOE and pen, thus more prone to kiting your forces and not just throwing itself into any holes of your defences. And let's not forget the glorious vet1 "self-defence" bren's all over the hull. And let's not forget Firefly-Churchill combo, that inflames my butt every time I see that sweet couple toughter.

Both heavvy flamers are absolute cancer and not fun to play against them. However, if kv-8 is rare sight, Crocodile is in meta.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 13:54 PMthedarkarmadillo

Meatshield tanks are not intended to chase. That's not their role. Saying they suck because they can't chase is like saying the firefly is garbage because it can't fight infantry. It's not its job. Meatshield are supposed to command the area around them. Both do that job exceptionally

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 13:33 PMSeductiveCardbordBox

If they are fighting in a total vaccum, sure.

But that is a SLOW fight with their respective guns and armour. Meanwhile, the PzIV is much more mobile and comes with a better overall infantry punishing set of weapons.

The KV1 is totally unable to chase and finish enemy vehicles unless they're crippled and snared, so while yes, the KV1 can slug it out with mediums, its not that much use otherwise.

At least the churchill has side port sten guns and a grenade/smoke mix to let it support. The KV is just kind of a brick. A useful thing to have, but not individually all that powerful.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 16:18 PMShadowLinkX37

People defending high rear armor because when you get flanked you want RNG to save you instead of actually having to support your tanks. The L2P is strong in this thread.

If you get flanked = it is your fault.

If you lose your tank to a flank = you did not support it well enough.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 16:18 PMShadowLinkX37

People defending high rear armor because when you get flanked you want RNG to save you instead of actually having to support your tanks. The L2P is strong in this thread.

If you get flanked = it is your fault.

If you lose your tank to a flank = you did not support it well enough.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 17:41 PMSuperHansFan

Maybe we should start with KT then

KT rear armor 225

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 17:47 PMSander93

King Tiger's rear armor is 150.

Jump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 06:25 AMMr Carmine

They are not immune to flanking. Their rear armor is 160 and 180. With 125 near pen a p4 should be able to pen is reasonably well imo. A panther deffinetly wil. A wel supported kv or churchill however is hard to flank. But so are tigers kt`s panthers etc.