KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage
20 May 2019, 14:30 PM
#21
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Now just imagine we attach flamethrowers to them so they can easily clear AT guns and make one of them a callin. "balanced"
20 May 2019, 15:36 PM
#22
Posts: 173
Russian KV-series are fine(totaly not biased because of nationality 
)
Churchills are, on the other hand, OP. While KV have higher armor, Churchill have 600 hp more(800 vs 1400 if believe to coh2db) and better gun in terms of AOE and pen, thus more prone to kiting your forces and not just throwing itself into any holes of your defences. And let's not forget the glorious vet1 "self-defence" bren's all over the hull. And let's not forget Firefly-Churchill combo, that inflames my butt every time I see that sweet couple toughter.
Both heavvy flamers are absolute cancer and not fun to play against them. However, if kv-8 is rare sight, Crocodile is in meta.
)Churchills are, on the other hand, OP. While KV have higher armor, Churchill have 600 hp more(800 vs 1400 if believe to coh2db) and better gun in terms of AOE and pen, thus more prone to kiting your forces and not just throwing itself into any holes of your defences. And let's not forget the glorious vet1 "self-defence" bren's all over the hull. And let's not forget Firefly-Churchill combo, that inflames my butt every time I see that sweet couple toughter.
Both heavvy flamers are absolute cancer and not fun to play against them. However, if kv-8 is rare sight, Crocodile is in meta.
20 May 2019, 15:37 PM
#23
Posts: 1392
I think PaK40 needs 62,5 range instead of 60 (only for Ostheer and OKW) so it would be easier to counter fire-fly in churchill-combo or SU beside KV.
Churchill and KV arn't the problems. It is the pain without Elefant or Pak43 to hold the tank-hunters.
With a samll PaK40 range buff I could live with a range-nerf for Ele and Jagdtiger.
But that is my opinion.
Churchill and KV arn't the problems. It is the pain without Elefant or Pak43 to hold the tank-hunters.
With a samll PaK40 range buff I could live with a range-nerf for Ele and Jagdtiger.
But that is my opinion.
20 May 2019, 16:14 PM
#24
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Russian KV-series are fine(totaly not biased because of nationality
Churchills are, on the other hand, OP. While KV have higher armor, Churchill have 600 hp more(800 vs 1400 if believe to coh2db) and better gun in terms of AOE and pen, thus more prone to kiting your forces and not just throwing itself into any holes of your defences. And let's not forget the glorious vet1 "self-defence" bren's all over the hull. And let's not forget Firefly-Churchill combo, that inflames my butt every time I see that sweet couple toughter.
Both heavvy flamers are absolute cancer and not fun to play against them. However, if kv-8 is rare sight, Crocodile is in meta.
KV-1 has damage reduction so its EHP is 960.
20 May 2019, 20:43 PM
#25
Posts: 2
Now just imagine we attach flamethrowers to them so they can easily clear AT guns and make one of them a callin. "balanced"L2p issue here its like saying elefant is "balanced" (op) because all at guns are usless versus him
kw1 op? Now imagine fast tank destroyer with 1000hp and 50 range
More axis bias pls
20 May 2019, 21:09 PM
#26
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
L2p issue here its like saying elefant is "balanced" (op) because all at guns are usless versus him
kw1 op? Now imagine fast tank destroyer with 1000hp and 50 range
More axis bias pls
k
20 May 2019, 22:07 PM
#27
Posts: 4474
They should just nerf the rear armor, there is no reason for them to be immune to flanking
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
21 May 2019, 06:25 AM
#28
Posts: 1289
They should just nerf the rear armor, there is no reason for them to be immune to flanking
They are not immune to flanking. Their rear armour is 160 and 180. With 125 near pen a p4 should be able to pen is reasonably well imo. A panther deffinetly wil. A wel supported kv or churchill however is hard to flank. But so are tigers kt`s panthers etc.
21 May 2019, 06:39 AM
#29
Posts: 911
A wel supported kv or churchill however is hard to flank. But so are tigers kt`s panthers etc.
But due to its high rear armour, kv or Churchill are still harder to flank
Imagine my playercard is here
21 May 2019, 07:09 AM
#30
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
They are not immune to flanking. Their rear armour is 160 and 180. With 125 near pen a p4 should be able to pen is reasonably well imo. A panther deffinetly wil. A wel supported kv or churchill however is hard to flank. But so are tigers kt`s panthers etc.
Not really.
An Ostheer PzIV parked behind a Churchill has 69.4% chance to penetrate it while the Churchill firing at the front armor of the same PzIV has 75%.
Even if a PzIV flank's a Churchill it will still loose.
21 May 2019, 07:44 AM
#31
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Not really.
An Ostheer PzIV parked behind a Churchill has 69.4% chance to penetrate it while the Churchill firing at the front armor of the same PzIV has 75%.
Even if a PzIV flank's a Churchill it will still loose.
Generalist medium tank lose vs generalist heavy tank, sounds balanced to me. Does a Cromwell lose or win vs a kingtiger/tiger even if it flanks it?
21 May 2019, 08:04 AM
#32
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Generalist medium tank lose vs generalist heavy tank, sounds balanced to me. Does a Cromwell lose or win vs a kingtiger/tiger even if it flanks it?
a) I was responding to a claim that Churchill can be flanked successfully by PzIV. The claim is false.
b) The fact that one is medium tank and the other heavy is rather irrelevant, performance has to with price and not with label.
c) As I explained in point b) your example is way off since the price difference of the units you bring up is way off.
d) A Cromwell can circle strafe an supported KT to death even with far more significant price difference, a PzIV will have a far more difficult time. Your example is simply does not prove your point. On the contrary.
21 May 2019, 08:16 AM
#33
Posts: 591 | Subs: 1
A churchill is more expensive, requires additional tech, is substantially slower, and never gets an armour upgrade with vet. An Ost PzIV has plenty of strengths, but its not much of a counter to a Churchill. Nor does it need to be.
Stack it up against a panther, which has arond the same fuel difference in the other direction, and that Churchill gun is suddenly a whole lot less imoressive. And the panther is still the more mobile one.
Given how easy it is to flank the lumbering church, the rear armour makes sense.
Stack it up against a panther, which has arond the same fuel difference in the other direction, and that Churchill gun is suddenly a whole lot less imoressive. And the panther is still the more mobile one.
Given how easy it is to flank the lumbering church, the rear armour makes sense.
21 May 2019, 08:20 AM
#34
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I find it hilarious that heavy tanks which sole purpose is to soak damage are being complained about being able to soak damage.
Yes, these two are sturdy walls, but there isn't much coming from these walls back at you.
Yes, these two are sturdy walls, but there isn't much coming from these walls back at you.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 May 2019, 08:20 AM
#35
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
b) The fact that one is medium tank and the other heavy is rather irrelevant, performance has to with price and not with label.
So a LefH 18 should be able to defeat an M15? Or maybe unit role and charactaristics are relevant to performance/balance along with the unit price?
It is literally one of the purposes of a slow heavy tank to counter a generalist medium tank. You know, as part of that rock-paper-scissors thing that the entire game is kind of about.
21 May 2019, 08:28 AM
#36
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
a) I was responding to a claim that Churchill can be flanked successfully by PzIV. The claim is false.
b) The fact that one is medium tank and the other heavy is rather irrelevant, performance has to with price and not with label.
c) As I explained in point b) your example is way off since the price difference of the units you bring up is way off.
d) A Cromwell can circle strafe an supported KT to death even with far more significant price difference, a PzIV will have a far more difficult time. Your example is simply does not prove your point. On the contrary.
And I was confirming your response, medium generalist tanks lose vs heavy generalist tanks. Whatever they are.
21 May 2019, 08:40 AM
#37
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
So a LefH 18 should be able to defeat an M15? Or maybe unit role and charactaristics are relevant to performance/balance along with the unit price?
Taking things out of context does not really help promote this debate. The fact that one unit is medium and the other is heavy tank does change the balance of these 2 units but their role and how they are used, your example is simply completely irrelevant. The label "heavy tank" and "medium" mean very little between these tank. Churchill should have a better chance to win because it more expensive not because it is "heavy". that can be easily seen between the OKW PzIV and the Kv-1 which is a much more balanced much up although PzIv is still "medium" and KV-1 is "heavy"
It is literally one of the purposes of a slow heavy tank to counter a generalist medium tank. You know, as part of that rock-paper-scissors thing that the entire game is kind of about.
It nice theory but it also applies to Tiger, KT, IS-2 which are heavy tanks and Elephant, JT, ISU-152 and all of these unit have (some significantly) lower rear armor than Churchill.
The claim about Rock-paper-scissors does not apply between PzIV and Churchill these unit do not hard counter each other.
On the other hand a PzIV managing to flank a Churchill should at least have penetration chance advantage over it.
21 May 2019, 08:46 AM
#38
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
And I was confirming your response, medium generalist tanks lose vs heavy generalist tanks. Whatever they are.
Once more "medium" tank and "heavy" tank has little to with balance. The Okw PzIV is medium and the KV-1 is heavy. Being heavy does not give the KV-1 the edge over PzIV and it is a close fight.
21 May 2019, 09:02 AM
#39
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
It nice theory but it also applies to Tiger, KT, IS-2 which are heavy tanks and Elephant, JT, ISU-152 and all of these unit have (some significantly) lower rear armor than Churchill.
Yes it's almost as if all those tanks have other significant charactarizations while all the Churchill has are its HP pool and armor.
Once more "medium" tank and "heavy" tank has little to with balance. The Okw PzIV is medium and the KV-1 is heavy. Being heavy does not give the KV-1 the edge over PzIV and it is a close fight.
Penetration is mostly RNG because both have approximately the same chance to pen on average but the KV-1 has way more effective HP.
It's not really a close fight at all, in 20 engagements on all ranges the KV-1 won 17 times, with 13 KV-1s left standing with 25-50% of their health still left. Despite the KV-1 being practically identical in cost. Seems like being a heavy tank is as relevant as pure cost.
21 May 2019, 09:26 AM
#40
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yes it's almost as if all those tanks have other significant charactarizations while all the Churchill has are its HP pool and armor.
And that does not justify having more rear armor than they do while having less frontal armor.
Penetration is mostly RNG because both have approximately the same chance to pen on average but the KV-1 has way more effective HP.
It's not really a close fight at all, in 20 engagements on all ranges the KV-1 won 17 times, with 13 KV-1s left standing with 25-50% of their health still left.
Now do the same test VS Churchill...I suspect it perform even better.
Your claim that because a tank is label "heavy" it should win over a "medium" is simply flawed. Heavy tanks simpy not "hard" counters to mediums tanks.
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