Consolidated Commander Roster and General Balance Changes

Hardly. That's the point of that sort of medium tank. The only basic medium that's not great at anti-infantry is the Cromwell.

The other four are great.

You missed his point like IS-2 missed infantry squad.

In the end of the day if the MP-40 is such a great upgrade why are you against replacing the MP-44s?

Because Volks can effectively use their MP40s in urban maps where they can avoid getting shot while closing in? In CQC combat when you'd choose to use them over the STG44s? That's a big difference from it being the stock upgrade and Volks getting shafted on the majority of maps that have mostly ranged combat.

Your other arguments are quite frankly laughable. It's really clear you've either never really used the commander or you just suck with it. It's fantastic for urban map (high level) team games if you even remotely know how to make it work.

"Unless you spam [flamer Sturmpioneers] the impact is really low" yeah you don't say. Maybe try making two and you'll start dominating infantry engagements with them.

Because Volks can effectively use their MP40s in urban maps where they can avoid getting shot while closing in? In CQC combat when you'd choose to use them over the STG44s? That's a big difference from it being the stock upgrade and Volks getting shafted on the majority of maps that have mostly ranged combat.

Your other arguments are quite frankly laughable. It's really clear you've either never really used the commander or you just suck with it. It's fantastic for urban map (high level) team games if you even remotely know how to make it work.

"Unless you spam [flamer Sturmpioneers] the impact is really low" yeah you don't say. Maybe try making two and you'll start dominating infantry engagements with them.

Ok you have chosen to turn this debate into personal, so I have no intention in continuing this.

Have a nice day.

Well, I have to say MP40 profile was pretty crap. They do better in maps which are more urban but STG upgrade is better overall for Volks. Since it adapts better and you can maintain better aggression. At least they are making MP40 better to make it a more viable option.

Otherwise everyone would have used MP40 for Volks, which in this case was very rare. I think it provided smoke but replaced firenade with a normal nade which was a downside. The MP40 overall restricted you from maintaining aggression and engaging longer ranges. So there were more cons than pros and that is why it was hardly used.

Maybe MP40 upgrade option by default for Sturmpio would most certainly fit them better if you wanted a close quarter aggression unit. Even more than so. It should give Sturmpio smoke only with the MP40 upgrade. Locks maybe every upgrade except "Wire cutter upgrade".

Otherwise everyone would have used MP40 for Volks, which in this case was very rare. I think it provided smoke but replaced firenade with a normal nade which was a downside. The MP40 overall restricted you from maintaining aggression and engaging longer ranges. So there were more cons than pros and that is why it was hardly used.

It's hardly used because it's in the Feuersturm doctrine, and OKW's metagame is almost exclusively Special Operations with a smattering of Overwatch and Elite Armour.

Because Volks can effectively use their MP40s in urban maps where they can avoid getting shot while closing in? In CQC combat when you'd choose to use them over the STG44s? That's a big difference from it being the stock upgrade and Volks getting shafted on the majority of maps that have mostly ranged combat.

Your other arguments are quite frankly laughable. It's really clear you've either never really used the commander or you just suck with it. It's fantastic for urban map (high level) team games if you even remotely know how to make it work.

"Unless you spam [flamer Sturmpioneers] the impact is really low" yeah you don't say. Maybe try making two and you'll start dominating infantry engagements with them.

No need to be so personal here Mr top 20s rank. We get that you're a hot shot now since you're part of the community team but no need to be an elitist ass and let all of this go to your head thinking that you're a cut above the rest.

Be a bit more humble and don't forget that while I don't agree with Vipper on some things you gotta admit that he provided you guys with a lot of valuable and in-detail feedback, especially about the balance, something which most of us couldn't, and didn't do.

No need to be so personal here Mr top 20s rank. We get that you're a hot shot now since you're part of the community team but no need to be an elitist ass and let all of this go to your head thinking that you're a cut above the rest.

Be a bit more humble and don't forget that while I don't agree with Vipper on some things you gotta admit that he provided you guys with a lot of valuable and in-detail feedback, especially about the balance, something which most of us couldn't, and didn't do.

He still is right tho.
Perception of usefulness of certain units greatly depends on your ability to use them.
Just look at people complaining about new stormtroopers making them bad, while Hans or VonIvan completely wreck faces with them to the extent that wasn't possible before. Hell, there are people who still believe brummbar is bad despite it reliably 2-shooting 6 man squads.
And frankly, saying vipper is average level player would be an overstatement(talking from personal experience against him in the past), so him having a biased insight on less popular and non meta units and upgrades being bad comes from his (in)ability to utilize them properly or in correct circumstances.

Hell, 99% of balance threads are made by people who should not be leaving strategy desk for advises.

It's hardly used because it's in the Feuersturm doctrine, and OKW's metagame is almost exclusively Special Operations with a smattering of Overwatch and Elite Armour.

It is not only that.
MP-40 volks have a good chance to lose to most SMG allied infantry.

It is not only that.
MP-40 volks have a good chance to lose to most SMG allied infantry.

So don't 1v1 them.

I'd expect a 280 MP 70 MP Cavalry Rifleman squad to have the edge over a 250 MP 45 FU Volks squad, just like I'd expect an Obersoldaten squad to have the edge over a single M1919 Rifleman squad.

Feuersturm is bad relative to on-meta commanders because two of its abilities are very situational, one is absolute trash, and the Flame Hetzer has poor synergy with the current OKW faction design.

The Assault Packages ability in isolation is pretty solid.

No need to be so personal here Mr top 20s rank. We get that you're a hot shot now since you're part of the community team but no need to be an elitist ass and let all of this go to your head thinking that you're a cut above the rest.

I don't care about ranks and never have, that's why I'm normally never showing it off nor do I ask others for their playercard, but to me saying Feuersturm's abilities/units are bad (with the exception of incendiary ammo and Opel Blitz) is the equivalent of calling the new Stormtroopers bad. It's quite clearly a learn to play issue. I only mentioned my rank because I can't be bothered to write an entire essay about why Feuersturm is good when I can just say that it is good because I know so from personal experience winning the vast majority of matches I use it, and I think a high rank does give such a personal opinion more weight. These are cases where the stats and numbers simply can't tell the picture.

I honestly have no other way of describing Vipper's arguments there. I wouldn't even know where to start. He thinks the Hetzer is bad because it can get killed by a T-70? Yeah and a KV-8 can also get killed by a Panzer IV, but that doesn't mean it isn't a great unit. 1 flamer doesn't have a high enough impact? Well yes, that's why the usual strat with Feuersturm is to open with double Sturmpioneers exactly to get that high impact. UKF/USF infantry and Penals can just retreat if MP40 Volks manage to get close? Well yeah forcing off enemy infantry is kinda their purpose. The psychological effect of having an AOE grenade when people are used to a flame grenade should not be dignified with an answer? I couldn't even tell you how many times I've thrown the Model 40 grenade into infantry with the enemy player thinking they can just walk through it because they thought it was a flame nade.

These arguments are the same as those made by players who state MP40 Stormtroopers aren't good after running them straight into the enemy in a frontal charge, for example.

It is not only that.
MP-40 volks have a good chance to lose to most SMG allied infantry.

And so what?
Specialist units aren't supposed to fight their archetype equivalents - they are supposed to fill their niche. Which mp40 volks do for their cost. Its rather obvious they are going to lose to much more expensive shocks or rangers and they do have edge over assault engies, which is the closest comparable squad when it comes to combat capability.

So don't 1v1 them.

I'd expect a 280 MP 70 MP Cavalry Rifleman squad to have the edge over a 250 MP 45 FU Volks squad, just like I'd expect an Obersoldaten squad to have the edge over a single M1919 Rifleman squad.

Feuersturm is bad relative to on-meta commanders because two of its abilities are very situational, one is absolute trash, and the Flame Hetzer has poor synergy with the current OKW faction design.

The Assault Packages ability in isolation is pretty solid.

The MP-40 is simply inferior to the grease gun and only slightly better than conscripts PPsh.

That is why it is getting a buff.

The MP-40 is simply inferior to the grease gun and only slightly better than conscripts PPsh.

That is why it is getting a buff.

Which'll make it better. It wasn't bad before, just highly situational and stuck in a off-meta doctrine.

Which'll make it better. It wasn't bad before, just highly situational and stuck in a off-meta doctrine.

It is bad in live, compare to the grease gun, will not even mention Thompson. The buff is there probably to bring it inline with grease gun.

DPS
range 10/15
Grease gun 13.4/4.2
MP-40 9.85/3.3

Grease gun is x136% better at range 0-10
and x125% better at range 15.

It is bad in live, compare to the grease gun, will not even mention Thompson.

DPS
range 10/15
Grease gun 13.4/4.2
MP-40 9.85/3.3

Grease gun is x136% better at range 0-10
and x125% better at range 15.

PPSh Cons lose to PGrens. That doesn't make PPSh Cons bad.

PPSh Cons lose to PGrens. That doesn't make PPSh Cons bad.

No matter how much twist you wan to use the stat are there
Show Spoiler
The grease gun is almost 40% better than the MP40 and that by comparison to grease gun makes the MP-40 bad.

No matter how much twist you wan to use the stat are there

The grease gun is almost 40% better than the MP40.

And the squads that carry them cost 280 MP, don't get the smoke grenades and don't have a received accuracy bonus.

(I you claim is probably inaccurate since pg will probably losses to equal MP Ppsh conscripts and MP-40 VG will probably loose to PPsh conscripts)

In which case you have to apply the same logic to the Volks/Assault Engineer comparison. The Volks'll need another 60% of a Volksgrenadier added.

MP40 upgrade would suit Sturmpios better since they should be the unit for closer range focused engagements.

Volks should maintain, mid to long range. Remain supportive. MP40 is a downgrade for them despite what changes came along on the patch. Mid to late game would become terrible for Volks.

It would suit better for Sturmpio to have it. Just saying since it seems more that type of unit!

MP40 upgrade would suit Sturmpios better since they should be the unit for closer range focused engagements.

Volks should maintain, long to mid range. Remain supportive. MP40 is a downgrade for them despite what changes came along on the patch. Mid to late game would become terrible for Volks.

It would suit better for Sturmpio to have it. Just saying since it seems more that type of unit!

They already are.
Their STG profile is closer to SMG then PG STGs.

They already are.
Their STG profile is closer to SMG then PG STGs.

(Volks can) Only (have) 2 of them STG for the sake of maintaining kind of long but more focused on mid ranges. For varying purposes but not close range. Short range is improved with upgrade most definitely. MP40 would be a straight downgrade. All units in game require range, and having stock units have short range capabilities will drain your manpower.

Can be already difficult enough to handle Sturmpio in combat scenarios. Not on top Volks now.

Maybe preferable for Conscripts (not MP40 but similar profile) to have it since they have "Oraah" which can help close the gap. Even then, they do not really a unit that is specified for close combat engagements. Might be a good idea for them to have it for a change!

"Oraah" should have some slight negative modifiers adjusted also, since you save time from taking damage and at the fact quick movement is highly advantageous for many reasons