Life without Guards

So I bought one of the new Soviet commanders to try him out, which of course means playing without Guards. I like to try out new builds to see what sticks, and for the most part, no build without Guards has "stuck" for me. I know that the beta is supposed to reduce Soviet reliance on call in units, but that's far off.

So how do you hold your ground in 1v1 when P4's hit the field? Perfect example... last night I had a fight with 2 P4's, a gren, and 2 PG vs. an SU-85, 2 ZiS, a shock, and a conscript. The other units for both sides were capping around. I knew he had one P4 because the ZiS had caused it to limp off a few times, but I couldn't finish it off. The 2 P4s basically won the encounter by themselves. With their turbo button, they got an easy flank on the SU-85, and the ZiS wasn't doing jack. My other ZiS had to turn and reposition to get los, my AT grenade bounced, and that was that. The shocks and ppsh cons did manage to burn down the infantry coming at me, but because I didn't have Guards, I lost the encounter. With the Guards and button, I'd have won or at least destroyed a tank and caused a retreat. After destroying all my AT options, he proceeded to rush my base and that was that.

Who here has consistent success without Guards in 1v1? They've become a crutch for me.

And what do you do with your Guards if Smoke is used?
Or is the damage from their rifles alnoe enough to win the engagement?

I normally go T2-T3 without guards, in which case you use a combination of the ZiS, AT nades and ramming to gank the first P-IV before it can get buddies or you use the ZiS as area denial while using your tier 3 vehicles to demolish as much of the infantry as possible. As long as you don't let a P-IV hit vet 2 and don't throw away T-34s for nothing you can usually handle the Ostheer pretty well.

With Tier 4, which I'm not that great with, you really need some mines to protect your SU-85 from being flanked (a damaged engine P-IV is just fodder for the SU) and ideally to kill one P-IV pretty quickly before it can vet up to keep you in the vehicle race.

But then, with T4 I'd usually prefer to have guards anyway to cope with the longer mid-game/lack of T-70s to kill the FHT.

I play mostly without Guards...
Choose the commander with Shock Troops and PPsh Conscripts...My build is :
-2 Conscripts->Molotov research->2 Conscripts->AT Nade->The healing thingy->1 or 2 Shock Troops->T1(Snipers are good,though I wouldn't trade them for Shock Troops) and then rush for T4 and SU85->122 mm howitzer...
It is important to mention that this tactic is heavily based on infantry,the only problem you can have is a FlameHT,or Ostruppen spam,those ruined many games for me...to counter FlameHT keep 3 Conscript squads together,requires 3 AT nades to destroy it...
If you manage to get SU85 by the time he gets a P4 or Ostwind out it is pretty much your game,just to be safe save some manpower to construct 122mm howitzer...that did wonders when the opponent had Elefant out...
On a side note:I play agressively in the beginning but when SU85 comes out,I just defend the VP's and bomb the enemy base with howitzers...also it's vet. 1 ability massacres important units when he least expects

After playing more and more as soviets, Mines are probably the best ability in the game, even more when the community thinks "soviets are muni heavy/float".

AT guns (even for germans) need mines as a Sticky/faust will only slow down a tank, not stop them! I have had a dmg'ed engine ostwind still circle strafe my at gun based on my poor positioning and no mines.

Start the habit of mine-ing early, as A.) you'll take out gren(LMG) squads B.) PGren squads early, C.) T2 vehicles and D.) protect flanks of SU85 & At guns.

And what do you do with your Guards if Smoke is used?
Or is the damage from their rifles alnoe enough to win the engagement?

To be honest, I build two Guards so I can button twice. I said they were my crutch, after all.

If I'm not going to use Guards I usually go T2-T3. SU-85s don't really work that well on non-open maps and need Guards to protect their flank. A couple T-34s, mines, Zis are more flexible I find. The hardest thing to deal with though when not using Guards is a heavy T2 from Germans, with supported FHT and scout car. Then I'm hoping to not get pushed off the map before a T-70 can come out.

I guess that's my problem. I hate T3. Hate it. As you said, Guards give flexibility in dealing with scout cars and HTs, and they're really useful late game with button. But I'd probably have had a good chance in that game had I gone with T34s instead of SU-85s, now that I think about it. I'll give it a shot.

Yeah I would definitely recommend it, especially if you want to try using Shock troops more. Most of the Shock Troop doctrines also have call-in heavy tanks (KV-1, KV-8, IS-2, ISU-152) in case it goes late game. If you can reach the stage of having a couple T-34s and 2 Zis, you'll be in a good position. It's just getting past a German T2 without Guard that I find difficult.

i just spam conscripts, at nades, mines and t34s.

It's just getting past a German T2 without Guard that I find difficult.

i just spam conscripts, at nades, mines and t34s.

Concripts & At Nades, then Mines, mines and mines, that's how you beat T2. Then x2-4 T-34s for T3 then su-85/callintanks for T4

life without guards ??? you ll be so lonely and cold in those russian stepes

On a more serious note , you need atgs , at grenades , some ability to buff them , like the "maphack" ability or the atg camo one and you need to get a t70 or t34 depending how the game goes as fast as shit , mines will also be your friend .

life without guards isnt worth living

You have only three options in the early to mid game: AT nades, mines and AT.

And tbh you need to use them all to stop the inevitable PzIV or Ostwind.

you really find guards as a good counter against P4's? then gl in your future.

Guards are only good vs weak AI vehicles which is Stug 3 and Scout car, in other cases they suck, i never take them bewcause i prefer 2 ATG's with AT nades and that solves the problem

What about a fast panther in 2vs2 : 3 nades did nothing, fired at-gun 4 times at him, he rushed my su-85 and circle it while getting 2 stars killing 2 conscrits that were nading him, he finished the at- gun that i have recrewed 2 times and manage to kill de su-85... he was only at 50% hit. So i hope something is done cause it smell broken now...
The veterency system seem the problem and conscrits nades should do more effect... Im not a fanboy, try it yourself you will see. I forgot it also ran on 2 mines that do nearly nothing to him... the map was pripyat... I just want a game with a bit more balance.
ty.

i just spam conscripts, at nades, mines and t34s.

I do the same. And im rank 33. Trying to get 2xT34, then trying to save them and go for SU85.If im lucky - in late game i have 2xt34 with SU85.

For me Guards are waste of menpower. Zis AT gun very rare choise for me. In every game im trying to build army of 6xcons, 2xt34, 1xSU85 and Katiusha or Artilery.

What about a fast panther in 2vs2 : 3 nades did nothing, fired at-gun 4 times at him, he rushed my su-85 and circle it while getting 2 stars killing 2 conscrits that were nading him, he finished the at- gun that i have recrewed 2 times and manage to kill de su-85... he was only at 50% hit. So i hope something is done cause it smell broken now...
The veterency system seem the problem and conscrits nades should do more effect... Im not a fanboy, try it yourself you will see. I forgot it also ran on 2 mines that do nearly nothing to him... the map was pripyat... I just want a game with a bit more balance.
ty.

well first of all.. 2 mines will do 400 damage. 3 AT nades that all deflect will do 300 damage. if your zis/su85 penetrated only 3 times during that whole fight, that would be enough to kill the panther. that shouldnt be difficult if he already had a damaged engine from mines.

secondly, vet 2 requires over 5000 xp for a panther. you pretty much need to solo 3 SU85s for that much xp.

so theres two reasons why your story doesnt really make sense. either that panther already killed a lot of units to get vet or you didnt nade it 3 times and mine it all at the same time. it would also make more sense to say what other units the german had. a single panther cant fight an AT gun, su85 and multiple conscripts. right now it just sounds like you exaggerated or left out parts of the story to make it fit your argument better.

but i will admit veterancy is extremely powerful right now. thats why theyre reworking it.

well first of all.. 2 mines will do 400 damage. 3 AT nades that all deflect will do 300 damage. if your zis/su85 penetrated only 3 times during that whole fight, that would be enough to kill the panther. that shouldnt be difficult if he already had a damaged engine from mines.

secondly, vet 2 requires over 5000 xp for a panther. you pretty much need to solo 3 SU85s for that much xp.

so theres two reasons why your story doesnt really make sense. either that panther already killed a lot of units to get vet or you didnt nade it 3 times and mine it all at the same time. it would also make more sense to say what other units the german had. a single panther cant fight an AT gun, su85 and multiple conscripts. right now it just sounds like you exaggerated or left out parts of the story to make it fit your argument better.

but i will admit veterancy is extremely powerful right now. thats why theyre reworking it.

Well its a sad true story

For the record, I wasn't referring to attacking tanks with the Guard squads. I was talking about button... all of the other methods of slowing tanks are too dependent on luck. Mines are very hit or miss, and usually what happens is that infantry squads walk on them before they send in the tanks. AT nades bounce way more often than I'd like (maybe I'm unlucky). I do fine with I can button, but I have a much harder time being effective with AT guns and SU-85s when German tanks have a "lol turbo" button to flank me with.

But yeah, I played around with T3 some more, and I'm having much better success with Shocks/T2/T3 now.