Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

I agree with all of the changes except moving them to the HQ. I think they should stay in the German T2 building, especially in light of the build time reduction and smoothed out vet.

+1

They're going to be going up against vet0-1 mainlines that don't have any weapon upgrades or even probably nades with new timing. Seems a bit like they'll steamroll a little too much and it's not like it's viable to skip t2 anymore anyway.

They're going to be going up against vet0-1 mainlines that don't have any weapon upgrades or even probably nades with new timing. Seems a bit like they'll steamroll a little too much and it's not like it's viable to skip t2 anymore anyway.

Basically penuls but a for axis. Sounds fair imo.

But hey, at least USF can still carry their games with tank traps. As you said.

I don't see any steamroll if you don't have any map control to begin with, or you want to hold until t2 using pios only?

A 6 second build time reduction and adjusted vet bonuses are not going to change much.

Moving them to the HQ building but locking them behind T1 is the perfect solution.

I agreed with strofio's point. They'll be no different to Penals, especially given their still lofty price.

The only change that should possibly considered is perhaps a very minor manpower cost reduction (from 340 to 330 or 320). Beyond that I think they'll be in a really good spot post patch.

I don't see a problem with T0 pgrens, the biggest problem with them, is fitting them into a build. T0 pgrens help ostheer be more aggressive early on and helps pgrens not fall behind enemy infantry in terms of scaling. All the other changes by themselves won't suddenly make pgrens a lot more useful for most players.

Still, I feel that pgrens without ambush training aren't very good for anything other than defense against enemy assault units or aggressive vehicle play. Not that they are terrible at assaulting distracted enemies from a flank, or with smoke.

So let's get back on topic, why do people think of the changes that happened in the mod?

Total changes are:

-Now available from the HQ after Battle Phase 1
-Population from 9 to 8
-G43 upgrade from 60 to 25.
-Reinforce time from 8.5 to 7.
-Build time from 34 to 28.
-Infantry Doctrine Combined Arms now a veterancy 1 passive. Medkits removed.
-Combined Arms ability now triggers when near allied vehicle.
-Veterancy 2 now adds +16.7% weapon accuracy.
-Veterancy 3 accuracy bonus from +40% to +20%.

Generally good changes. I like them a lot. Honestly I don't think moving unit into T0 will cause big problems. Skipping T1 and goving for pgrens can be punished by early light vehicule rush. Plus quite high costs of BF1 upgrade, still 28s build time will make them come quite late (way later than penals). Also worth pointing out that going for early Pgren rush will also include build of 2 or 3 MG42. I think this strategy can be problematic for Brits but thanks to their new commander and mortar 0CP they can deal with it. I'm also kinda afraid spam of pgrens with 2x shrek covered by MG wall in mid game which will be able to stop any tank and infantry push.

I guess we will find out more when patch will be release and then some quick ajustments could be needed. Maybe spliting shrek upgrade into 2 fazes: 1 shrek upgrade straight away and second after BF2 or BF3.

Btw does G43 upgrade really need to require ammunition? From what i tested and saw - diffrence in performance is really small.

...Pgren rush will also include build of 2 or 3 MG42. I think this strategy can be problematic for Brits but thanks to their new commander and mortar 0CP they can deal with it...

Psst. UC can carry a single IS through MGs fire into a favourable position to fight and kill it. But no one ever does it. Only if 2 or more mgs. Are covering each other this trick doesn't work but it already punishes OST for having very bad and slow opening

So let's get back on topic, why do people think of the changes that happened in the mod?

Total changes are:

-Now available from the HQ after Battle Phase 1
-Population from 9 to 8
-G43 upgrade from 60 to 25.
-Reinforce time from 8.5 to 7.
-Build time from 34 to 28.
-Infantry Doctrine Combined Arms now a veterancy 1 passive. Medkits removed.
-Combined Arms ability now triggers when near allied vehicle.
-Veterancy 2 now adds +16.7% weapon accuracy.
-Veterancy 3 accuracy bonus from +40% to +20%.

These following changes are simply great! This is simply fair and square. I mean how often does anyone fit them in their current builds. Through this, it will definitely increase diversity rather than always choosing grens which is always the same current build.

I am happy that these changes are coming since it is now more justified. I do agree however that maybe a slight cost reduction as Farlion had mentioned, maybe to 330 or 320 would be good. I am really looking forward to this

Btw does G43 upgrade really need to require ammunition? From what i tested and saw - diffrence in performance is really small.

I believe it's mainly due to the sight. There are fears that if the PGs did get 4 G43s that they might be too oppressive as they can engage at all ranges to an extent. I don't have those sentiments, but I can understand considering how good the PG G43 is at chasing people which might be exacerbated by earlier veterancy 2.

I believe it's mainly due to the sight. There are fears that if the PGs did get 4 G43s that they might be too oppressive as they can engage at all ranges to an extent. I don't have those sentiments, but I can understand considering how good the PG G43 is at chasing people which might be exacerbated by earlier veterancy 2.

do PGs get 2 or 3 G43's? Also, what are the main advantages of the G43 upgrade over leaving them with their 4 stock STGs?

I really like the new pgrens changes, particularly the earlier unlock. Should really spice up the BO and also make ostroppen builds more exciting

do PGs get 2 or 3 G43's? Also, what are the main advantages of the G43 upgrade over leaving them with their 4 stock STGs?

They get 3x G43.


DPS at ranges: 0 / 10 / 20 / 27 / 30 / 35

STG44 15,5 / 11,9 / 7 / 4,1 / 2,8 / 1,1

G43 13,3 / 9,6 / 5,3 / 4,1 / 3,7 / 3,2


So G43s have less DPS at close and mid range, but overtake STG44s at 27 range and have significanty better DPS at max range.

However, one important factor to consider is moving DPS:
STG44s have only ~50% DPS while moving, at most ranges.
G43s have ~88% DPS while moving.

So G43s have higher DPS on all ranges while the squad is moving, which would also probably make them too good at chasing and wiping retreating squads if they got a 4th G43.

So let's get back on topic, why do people think of the changes that happened in the mod?

Total changes are:

-Now available from the HQ after Battle Phase 1
-Population from 9 to 8
-G43 upgrade from 60 to 25.
-Reinforce time from 8.5 to 7.
-Build time from 34 to 28.
-Infantry Doctrine Combined Arms now a veterancy 1 passive. Medkits removed.
-Combined Arms ability now triggers when near allied vehicle.
-Veterancy 2 now adds +16.7% weapon accuracy.
-Veterancy 3 accuracy bonus from +40% to +20%.

I think the pop cap changes are wrong when you have elite inf at 8 pop cap.

Watch this for what I mean, this is current non-buff pgrens once they get vet3. They already more than bully double bren 5man Tommies that require way more investment (Which are also 8pop).

All your change will produce is pgren spam, so I advise to keep at 9pop.

https://youtu.be/D9bW0vYRt2w

On topic of G43 I like the change, long range DPS+extra sight makes them a solid sniper counter when combined with camo. Imo this sort of role change is what you should look for rather than straight up buffs like pop cap that make pgrens a nobrainer unit to build as they are so cost effective.

do PGs get 2 or 3 G43's? Also, what are the main advantages of the G43 upgrade over leaving them with their 4 stock STGs?

Panzergrenadiers get 3 G43's, these have about 20% more dps than the G43's Grenadiers get.

+ G43's have the highest moving dps in the game at ~90%, compared to ~50% of STG44's.
+ Panzergrenadiers get 20% bonus sight with G43's, giving them equal sight to Pioneers (42).
+ G43's get better long range dps than STG44's, starting at 27 range.
+ Panzergrenadiers get free interrogation once upgraded.

- G43's have noticably less close and midrange damage than STG44's. I also believe STG44's do more scatter damage (a hidden dps value) and have faster aimtime.
- STG44's benefit more of the bonus accuracy with vet, widening the dps gap between ranges 0-27.
- STG44's do more damage against light vehicles (more significant with new patch).
- You can't upgrade Schrecks anymore once you've upgraded G43's.


IMO
Even with the price decrease, I still believe G43's for Panzergrenadiers is an aimless upgrade. The extra long range dps is not enough to turn them into a dedicated long range squad, while the moving dps can not be utilized to its full extent on a squad as squishy as Panzergrenadiers. Meanwhile, they get downgraded in their intended role.

I'd like the price to be kept around 45-60 munitions and turning it into a true upgrade by giving them 4 G43's and 50 sight. This would give G43 Panzergrenadiers (and G43 Stormtroopers) a clear role as long range recon infantry.

IMO
Even with the price decrease, I still believe G43's for Panzergrenadiers is an aimless upgrade. The extra long range dps is not enough to turn them into a dedicated long range squad, while the moving dps can not be utilized to its full extent on a squad as squishy as Panzergrenadiers. Meanwhile, they get downgraded in their intended role.

I'd like the price to be kept around 45-60 munitions and turning it into a true upgrade by giving them 4 G43's and 50 sight. This would give G43 Panzergrenadiers (and G43 Stormtroopers) a clear role as long range recon infantry.

+1

I like the overall pgren changes so far and hope they make it to the live game. After that you will get plenty of feedback which can be used for further changes.

Dont you think this buff is just gonna make it too oppressive since Pgens already dumpster Penals and now theyre going to come out way earlier while having the best MG in t0 and linear teching giving even better access. Will also make Cons even more useless now. Also shrecks

Panzergrenadiers get 3 G43's, these have about 20% more dps than the G43's Grenadiers get.

+ G43's have the highest moving dps in the game at ~90%, compared to ~50% of STG44's.
+ Panzergrenadiers get 20% bonus sight with G43's, giving them equal sight to Pioneers (42).
+ G43's get better long range dps than STG44's, starting at 27 range.
+ Panzergrenadiers get free interrogation once upgraded.

- G43's have noticably less close and midrange damage than STG44's. I also believe STG44's do more scatter damage (a hidden dps value) and have faster aimtime.
- STG44's benefit more of the bonus accuracy with vet, widening the dps gap between ranges 0-27.
- You can't upgrade Schrecks anymore once you've upgraded G43's.


IMO
Even with the price decrease, I still believe G43's for Panzergrenadiers is an aimless upgrade. The extra long range dps is not enough to turn them into a dedicated long range squad, while the moving dps can not be utilized to its full extent on a squad as squishy as Panzergrenadiers. Meanwhile, they get downgraded in their intended role.

I'd like the price to be kept around 45-60 munitions and turning it into a true upgrade by giving them 4 G43's and 50 sight. This would give G43 Panzergrenadiers (and G43 Stormtroopers) a clear role as long range recon infantry.

How about change PzGrens default weapon be stormtrooper MP40 and reduce training and reinforcement cost？After phase2 unlock STG44 upgrade，STG44 upgrade give PzGrens suppression fire ability.
And change G43 upgrade 3 to 4，I think it will make G43 more useful for PG，and we have little NERF for PG and have a reason reduce manpower cost

How about change PzGrens default weapon be stormtrooper MP40 and reduce training and reinforcement cost？After phase2 unlock STG44 upgrade，STG44 upgrade give PzGrens suppression fire ability.
And change G43 upgrade 3 to 4，I think it will make G43 more useful for PG，and we have little NERF for PG and have a reason reduce manpower cost

That's pretty much a dictrionary case of making spammable, OP squad.

So G43s have less DPS at close and mid range, but overtake STG44s at 27 range and have significanty better DPS at max range.
However, one important factor to consider is moving DPS:
STG44s have only ~50% DPS while moving, at most ranges.
G43s have ~88% DPS while moving.
So G43s have higher DPS on all ranges while the squad is moving, which would also probably make them too good at chasing and wiping retreating squads if they got a 4th G43.

Yeah, I see the problem with 4xG43 combine with vet1 ability. Could be abusive and really annoying to deal with.

Is it possible to change the G43 values only for Panzergrens by reducing the moving DPS and increase long range performance? Giving them a clear role as long range recon infantry would be quite interesting which ostheer currently doesn't have.

Currently the diffrence between STG and G43 isn't so big, it's more a trade off, you loose close/mid range into slighly better far range and better moving performance. If you don't plan to make any other change to G43 then removing the cost would be bad solution

How about change PzGrens default weapon be stormtrooper MP40 and reduce training and reinforcement cost？After phase2 unlock STG44 upgrade，STG44 upgrade give PzGrens suppression fire ability.
And change G43 upgrade 3 to 4，I think it will make G43 more useful for PG，and we have little NERF for PG and have a reason reduce manpower cost

- Stormtrooper MP40's don't work without camo, so even less people would get Panzergrenadiers because their STG44's would come (far) later and have to be upgraded first.
- Stormtroopers finally have a role that seperates them from Panzergrenadiers since they got MP40's, this change would make them too similar again.

Is it possible to change the G43 values only for Panzergrens by reducing the moving DPS and increase long range performance? Giving them a clear role as long range recon infantry would be quite interesting which ostheer currently doesn't have.

This sounds like an interesting solution. If their G43's had 75% moving dps (instead of 90%), they'd have about the same moving dps with 4 G43's as they currently have with 3 G43's and an STG. That would allow them to get 4 G43's without becoming too strong on the move.

50 sight with G43's would bring them in line with Pathfinders, flare Tommies and JLI. This would give Ostheer true recon infantry.

DPS changes at different ranges would have to be experimented with. I personally don't think an extra G43 would make them a dream unit at all ranges (we're talking 2~ more dps at range 35). Maybe exchange 20% short/mid range dps for 20% more long range damage.