The state of soviet tier 1?

Would adding some infantry AT to Special Rifle Command (please don't call them tiers) be good? Like 2 Bazookas or 4 AT rifles on penals or adding another squad with them. Maybe PTRS upgrade on snipers that penetrate every shot and have increased chance of criticals. I think those could be cool ideas, but I don't know if they would be balanced.

Would indeed be nice to see some crappy handheld AT from t1, something to soft counter the halftrack basically. That way you aren't forced to go gaurds or rush a potentially worthless atgun. (The other option is nerfing the t70 and letting it arrive sooner)

Anyone else tired and disappointed that the M3 is effectively a one shot flamethrower/sniper delivery system?

Anyone know if it can fire at aircraft?

Perhaps satchels can become less of a throwable that blows up more of your own men, and into a something that can do large damage to vehicles, but at an extremely short range.

Too bad Soviets never used the M3 to mount any sort of recoilless rifle/gun, that'd be an interesting upgrade, along with extra armor or something.

M3 doesn't do AA. You need M5 for that.

The problem with the M3 is that it has a very small window of usefulness. It's only really useful for killing weapon teams in the early game. It can't do anything vs. gren spam, and it's almost entirely negated once a .222 hits the field. It is exactly a flamethrower delivery system.

The problem with the M3 is that it has a very small window of usefulness. It's only really useful for killing weapon teams in the early game. It can't do anything vs. gren spam, and it's almost entirely negated once a .222 hits the field. It is exactly a flamethrower delivery system.

So true. I am okay with it being as fragile as it is. However, the damage it does just doesn't impress me. I mean it does some damage, but really the only way to think of it is as a delivery system for flamers. The German car at least can vet up and be a threat. This thing though not so much. It is actually the standard problem with German vs Soviet stuff. Many German units have good upgrades that allow them to vet easier by increasing the damage they do. Only a few of the Soviet units have this option.


As for Penals, I would actually like to see the satchel charge do more damage so it could destroy bunkers.

I actually really like Penals. Not to say I wouldn't take a buff though. The satchel charge is nice because it can punish those that charge them (if you time it well and the opponent isn't paying attention). I think that is the same reason they have the flame thrower (to keep the enemy at distance). Too bad it doesn't really work out so well. You really want a long range weapon as an upgrade so that they can do more damage at range.

Penals are great once you get them vetted up. The thing is though, you often need to land a few satchels to make that happen in a reasonable amount of time.

It would be nice though if they could throw the satchel charge and not have to back up to avoid taking damage.

Overall, when I play Tier 1 the thing I fear most is the Scout Car to Halftrack build. I avoided using guards forever and you simply cannot compete in any way if you are Tier 1 and they have the Scout Cars and Halftrack out(okay, you can if you get lucky with an AT grenade or mine on the Scout Car). However, the Halftrack is going to dominate.

I am open to any tips as Tier 1 (beyond using guards or T70 rush) to deal with a heavy light vehicle build from the Germans.

would be nice if penals could get stickies aswell like conscripts, would make penals so much more viable

I wonder if they could make M3s more durable if every Panzerfaust that hit it stunned the passengers, disabling weapons for a while.

Penals are cool. I use them a lot nowadays but yeah it can backfire hard if you lose mapcontrol for too long and they sneak a fast tank out.

I think satchel charges are fine as they are. Its not only good against unaware opponents but also weapon teams if they don't start to pack up immediately when they see the penal squad.
there is a problem though: sometimes it seams that not the closest guy throws the satchel charge and they are shredded to peaces or get suppressed before any throwing happens.

Well gorramnit, just like every time I write an in depth analysis on things, the site logs me out when I hit post and wipes the entire post field.

In short:

Penals work great being as flimsy as conscripts: it makes the merge ability awesome. Shock troops and guards with merged conscripts are much weaker in comparison as the conscripts are still flimsy. Merging conscripts with penals is probably the most effective and manpower-efficient use of the merge ability. With this relationship between the two units, I think it would be more than fair to extend conscript upgrades to penal battalions. Molotovs and anti tank grenades already require resource investment and munis to use.

Satchels are great ability, and are effective at what they do, especially with metric that two satchels = dead bunker = 90 munis = same cost as demo charges.

If anything, at the very least, Penal battalions should be given the Oorah! ability, if only to be able to run AWAY from their own satchel charges.

As for the m3 scout car I find its fuel costs to be excessive considering grenadiers (and now ostruppen) come with panzerfausts by default. The initial investment in the t1 building adds to the problem. Fielding an M3 scout car requires a similar invest to what the germans use getting their t2: containing three major hard counters to light vehicles (PAK, scout cars [w/upgun], and pgrens [w/shrek]) The halftrack is great at damaging M3s, and is hard to kill by it.

Point is, post german t2, scout cars are silly to field. And considering the difference 20 fuel makes in the early game, it's rarely worth delayed tech.

As for soviet sniper teams, they fire far too slowly and its such a process to get them to cloak (and stay cloaked) that they don't really serve the function of attacking specific units. They're designed to sit back while conscripts and other units create an engagement, rather than creating an opening for an engagement. Trying to get them to attack specific units usually results in them running around, repositioning, and ultimately revealing themselves totally before getting a kill. Leaving them in cover on autofire, and moving to avoid mortar barrages are about all soviet sniper teams are good for.

But my problem with snipers in CoH2 isn't faction related, it is how neither can kill anything inside a building at all. This drives me mad more than anything.

If anything, at the very least, Penal battalions should be given the Oorah! ability, if only to be able to run AWAY from their own satchel charges.

No. You're forgetting that they'd be able to Oorah up and throw a satchel as well which German soldiers wouldn't be able to get away from at all - you can just throw it slightly behind them since you're faster and they'll be caught in the explosion when retreating due to input delay and stupid pathfinding.

I don't really understand the in-game design of the penal battalion. In real life the most common use for shtrafbats was suicide missions which fits with the in-game unit's suicidal satchel charge throwing, no armor, and the flamethrower upgrade. But then Relic decides to also give them SVT-40s - essentially making them glass cannons - and a very high (initial) production cost, making them more effective as ranged elite infantry rather than suicide troops. These two design element types clash with one another and makes it very hard to find a scenario where all of the penal battalion's skills are useful.

Compare this unit design to that of Shock Troops: they have heavy armor, PPSh's, and two types of grenades, all of which can be used to great effect in any CQB situation.

Recall the old Rapid Conscription ability gave Penal Battalions instead of Conscripts. This leads me to believe that Relic did intend for Penals to be the suicide run-in-and-die troops (currently, that privilege is given to the regular conscript squad). What really confounds me is why they gave the Penals better weapons and higher cost to begin with.

True, but renaming Penal Battalions and Conscripts to a more historically accurate term in relation to their gameplay will do nothing to affect gameplay balance.

Using the Oorah ability, spending munitions, to charge in to throw a satchel would typically have it wear off by the time the satchel is actually thrown, retaining the current flavor of suicide troops.

Any unit getting caught in the blast of a satchel charge will typically be suffering because of pathing or failure to move/micro after the satchel is thrown. The penals getting into position to throw the three second charge is different from dodging the satchel. Throwing behind, onto, or in front of a packing up mortar squad is a strategic call that's up to the player.

Using Oorah to get into position for a satchel charge would most certainly cause more satchel charge dodging micro to be required than is currently in the metagame, sure. I don't think this would be a bad thing because satchel charges, when predicted and timed, can either be devastating or rendered completely ineffectual as it already stands in the game.

Should Penal Battalions end up having an extremely easy time chucking satchels and maneuvering away unscathed than they should, then perhaps a speed/armor penalty for penal oorah could make their charges more suicidal.

True, but renaming Penal Battalions and Conscripts to a more historically accurate term in relation to their gameplay will do nothing to affect gameplay balance.

Oh no, I don't mean rename them, not at all. I meant they need to revisit the actual design and skill kit of the Penal battalion and make it either an effective elite or suicide unit - not half-assed at both.

ive been thinking about an idea where penals come from t1 at 240mp 20 reinf. And maybe remove flamer uppgrade. I think this idea works because in a abusive stance where a player just instantly starts building t1 and spam penals. firstly he's early mapcontrol will suffer because the t1 building time.

secondly when an ost player sees the tacitc he'll fast tech to tier 2 to get pgrens/flameht countering it or go lmg on grens.

thirdly, hes lategame will suffer because of no vetted cons with at nades.

i just think 360mp for a unit thats basicly conscripts with a slightly better weapon and no utility is not worth that much manpower.

i never understood why people start off with T1 or T2 instead of 2 conscripts for capping power and it gives you some time to decide if T1 or T2 is the better way to go

Because, sometimes flanking and molotovs just isn't an option at the start of the game, and at that point you need the extra utility from other units.

I would had no problem with penals if they could use HQ Molotov and AT nades upgrades, you expend manpower and fuel to get minimal protection against armor and garrisons just to buy another non-doctrinal infantry unit what is unable to use it... IMHO it would made penal squads much more versatile and cost effective unit if being able to use HQ global upgrades too .

EDIT_1:
Other possible improvement would be decreasing penals price to 240 instead giving them access to HQ upgrades but I'm less into this idea.

EDIT_2:
Snipers and scout cars are balanced enough after patch, no need for buffing them.

I feel like I am missing something when I read this thread. Penal battalions are pretty good. They are a direct counter to Panzer Grenadiers and can 1v1 any German squad. Just don't spam them like they are conscripts. Get one or two squads and get the flamethrower.

I think that's the issue. People think they can just go right for penal squads instead of getting conscripts. You lose the map that way. If you want to incorporate penal battalions sensibly, try this build order.

Recommended building order:

Conscript -> Conscript -> Conscript -> T1 -> Sniper -> Penal Battalion -> AT grenades -> medical station

Use your penal battalions as a general anti-infantry unit or to side cap. Keep your sniper with your conscripts.

I feel like I am missing something when I read this thread. Penal battalions are pretty good. They are a direct counter to Panzer Grenadiers and can 1v1 any German squad. Just don't spam them like they are conscripts. Get one or two squads and get the flamethrower.

I think that's the issue. People think they can just go right for penal squads instead of getting conscripts. You lose the map that way. If you want to incorporate penal battalions sensibly, try this build order.

Recommended building order:

Conscript -> Conscript -> Conscript -> T1 -> Sniper -> Penal Battalion -> AT grenades -> medical station

Use your penal battalions as a general anti-infantry unit or to side cap. Keep your sniper with your conscripts.

The problem with Penal Troops is as soon as the Germans get a Scout Car or a Flame Half Track, they are pretty much screwed. They also do not scaled very well at all, the might counter Pgrens with the Flamethrower, but a good German player will just weaken your Penals first with a Scout Car.

So true. I am okay with it being as fragile as it is. However, the damage it does just doesn't impress me. I mean it does some damage, but really the only way to think of it is as a delivery system for flamers. The German car at least can vet up and be a threat. This thing though not so much. It is actually the standard problem with German vs Soviet stuff. Many German units have good upgrades that allow them to vet easier by increasing the damage they do. Only a few of the Soviet units have this option.


As for Penals, I would actually like to see the satchel charge do more damage so it could destroy bunkers.

I actually really like Penals. Not to say I wouldn't take a buff though. The satchel charge is nice because it can punish those that charge them (if you time it well and the opponent isn't paying attention). I think that is the same reason they have the flame thrower (to keep the enemy at distance). Too bad it doesn't really work out so well. You really want a long range weapon as an upgrade so that they can do more damage at range.

Penals are great once you get them vetted up. The thing is though, you often need to land a few satchels to make that happen in a reasonable amount of time.

It would be nice though if they could throw the satchel charge and not have to back up to avoid taking damage.

Overall, when I play Tier 1 the thing I fear most is the Scout Car to Halftrack build. I avoided using guards forever and you simply cannot compete in any way if you are Tier 1 and they have the Scout Cars and Halftrack out(okay, you can if you get lucky with an AT grenade or mine on the Scout Car). However, the Halftrack is going to dominate.

I am open to any tips as Tier 1 (beyond using guards or T70 rush) to deal with a heavy light vehicle build from the Germans.

I've been trying to use the M3A1 some effect this patch. The flame car is kind of hoping for a squad kill but also lets you bully lone grens and is hopefully going to force a lot of munitions expenditure in the form of wasted panzerfausts so you see less LMGs and probably no FHT. On maps like Moscow Outskirts with the really long roads you will usually get a squad kill, and if you catch an MG out of position, you can often steal or kill it.

The big problem is that using and M3A1 is kind of a plan to force the Ostheer to overspend on countering it if you play well and the Scout Car at 15 fuel is now so cheap that it doesn't slow down the Ostheer tech noticeably even if it's just thrown away.

Scout Car + FHT is less of a problem in my experience than the Ostheer player just holding the fuel with conservatively-placed grens and getting a P-IV out quickly.

The problem with Penal Troops is as soon as the Germans get a Scout Car or a Flame Half Track, they are pretty much screwed. They also do not scaled very well at all, the might counter Pgrens with the Flamethrower, but a good German player will just weaken your Penals first with a Scout Car.

That's where combined arms comes in. Penal battalions are more of a counter unit than anything else. An SU-85 is not very good against panzershreck squads, but that's not what it is for.