PPSHs as a global upgrade. Seriously.

+1
I agree with the OP, cons need some sort of weapon upgrade. (remember the multiplayer takes place in '44).
About the elephant it has to be changed but it is another story....

The current metagame doesn't actually force conscript spam or PPSHs and there's no reason other builds should be any less viable than they were pre the MG change when almost noone except Von was using Guards Combined Arms. If all you want to do is the VonIvan strat, then you need that doctrine, which isn't surprising.

I don't really think it's necessary to add the PPSH upgrade as a global. If it did need to be added, it should be as a BAR-style global upgrade for, like, 240mp + 60 fuel, then you could keep the doctrinal stuff as an alternative. Right now, the PPSH commanders are really popular because the MG got changed to make mass conscripts more viable (and because the IL-2 strafe is ridiculous).

Right now, PPSHs are a really good doctrinal ability (still not nearly as good as the LMG, but there you go), balanced by being limited to some commanders, which are limited in scope, have no heavy call-ins and don't have the strongest abilities (so, PPSHs + mark target + vehicle self-repair would just be ridiculously OP).

(I think the new Shocks + 120mm + PPSH + strafe + whatever, I think it's a KV-8 or something one was kind of released just to have a zero work thing to make up for the new paid commanders - I'm not sure it's that balanced).

Frankly, the real problem is with the Gren vet 2 + LMG combo being way too fast to get and too hard to hurt with small arms; adjusting up the conscripts to the same level will just result in the exact same dull spam on both sides as LMG-spam is now.

Well the thing is Conscripts already have this upgrade available. All the current situation does is forcing people to pick specific Commander every time to get it. Your post and the one you are replying to therefore make no sense unless you are both arguing for taking PPSHs out of the game completely.

You won`t help variability by arguing for status quo because people will just keep going with the same Commanders and PPSHs anyway... On the other hand you can get more variability by making more Commanders viable as I suggest.

First claim: It does not force you to pick a commander, if gives you the option to have ppsh's or something else. And no I dont' want ppsh's out of the game.

Second claim: Argue for status quo, not true. I did make suggestions on changed to conscripts that would make them stronger.

Have to agree here with Nullist. Conscripts have their share of unique abilities e.g. Merge and Oorah. No reason to change that unit in any way. Besides, I think the variety comes actually more this way, you have to select whether you want Commander that has better conscripts or do you center your choices around tanks, support units etc.

+1

However when you say I just ask for a flat-out buff to all soviets that simply is not true, especially if you consider I accepted suggestions for increasing the price as part of the upgrade change and even encouraged others to think of ways to make sure this stays balanced. Disagree with me, that`s fine but do not put words in my mouth. I never asked for a buff of any kind.

im not putting words in your mouth. you might be saying you dont want a buff, but thats contradictory to the rest of what youve written.

you want to make a doctrinal upgrade non doctrinal. that will make conscripts do more damage in all of the non ppsh doctrines. higher dps, especially on the move, is not a neutral change, that is a buff. also, i dont really think a cost increase makes it less of a buff. if panzer tactician became non doctrinal (even if the cost was increased) would that not be a buff for the germans?

Well the only decent infantry Soviets have are Shock Troops and their PPsh's are non-doctrinal,I'd sugest chosing a doctrine with Shocks in it and as the game moves on start replacing Conscripts with Shock Troops...but still keep 2 Conscript squads for Merge and AT grenade

Why in gods name would cons need a weapon upgrade?

At optimum levels they have 4 abilities and they are conscripts. I.e not the highly trained soldiers that german uses. They do great damage, cost nothing to reinforce and its hard to kill them off and stop armour to boot.

You want to make cons better? Increase their mp reinforce cost to that of the level of grens then you can get a weapon upgrade.

Units aren't meant to be mirror images of each other - the advantage is 6 man squad is sooooooo much harder to kill off, can take damage and still stay on field.

You can have more of them to cap, they arent vulnerable to sniper fire or mortar fire and they have a easymode Molotov that easy wins them engagements even with pgrens which cost 45 mp to reinforce and they can expect 1-3 dead at any molatov throw..

yeh cons need a buff..

@Strummingbird: A global, one off fuel cost upgrade is already unprecedented in CoH2.

You're forgetting the molotov and AT grenade upgrades for cons, which are indeed one off fuel cost upgrades.

There is a lot of talk about oorah and merge, but you also need to pay a whopping 240 mp, 50 fuel to get their molotov and their AT ability - which grens (and even ostruppen!) get for free.

I agree that conscripts need some way to be effective in the late game, such as non-doctrinal PPSHs. Currently they can do little more in the late game than cap points and throw AT nades - which ostruppen do at half the price (or less, if you include the cost of the AT nade upgrade). That said, a decrease in LMG effectiveness would go a long way.

Make G43's universal as well, and we'll talk.

Think about it. German needs more diversity, you only have TWO doctrines to chose from if you want them, etc. etc. Apply same argument as OP. No.

Make G43's universal as well, and we'll talk.

Think about it. German needs more diversity, you only have TWO doctrines to chose from if you want them, etc. etc. Apply same argument as OP. No.

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You're forgetting the molotov and AT grenade upgrades for cons, which are indeed one off fuel cost upgrades.

They are not "one off".

You have to pay Muni everytime you use them.

When people say "global upgrade" here, they generally mean that you buy the upgrade ONCE, globally, and suddenly all Cons, built before or after that, now carry PPSHs around with them, at no additional cost except that one single "global upgrade".

See the difference?

I have the solution stop eating each other like a flock of angry chicken

Give conscripts an upgrade for 2 svts or an lmg at t1/2 with a relatively small cost ( like the cost of molotovs and working in the same fashion as the ppsh) and have it make them on par with vanilla grens . That serves everyone , early on the grens keep their advantage and in the transitional phase of the game if you choose to pick the upgrade you force your opponent to spend munitions to keep the status quo .

Also its not like the grens dont have their own fair share of abilities faust and riflenades counterbalance molotovs and at grenades and they are a lot cheaper , and oorah and merge are situational , while the lmg is always useful

Sure. Following that logic, Grens could get Merge/Oorah at t1/2, for free.

Sure. Following that logic, Grens could get Merge/Oorah at t1/2, for free.

Not really , 1st cause the rest of the Ost units dont need any merging , 2 cause grens arent a flanking unit and their nade has good range , 3rd i said working in the same fashion as ppshs which means that you actually have to pay munitions to upgrade in addition to paying for the upgrade .

Finally sth that hasnt been said is that penals which are supposed to play the role of defeating the grens head on suck , but even if they did not suck , you will be seriously behind in the fuel war since soviet buildings take too long to build and you cant hold the line with less that 4 cons and with any more than that you will pick a ppsh doctrine anyway cause it makes sense to support your most ubiquitous units