PPSHs as a global upgrade. Seriously.

Alright, I think the elefant in the room needs addressing.

One of the biggest shortcomings of this game (which I really like) is in my opinion lack of variety. It seems like there is not that many viable strategies. This gets even worse when playing Soviets since if you want PPSHs you have exactly 3 commanders to pick from, if you want the option to call-in Guards to help you with that fast FHT or medium armor later on you have just 1 commander left. This really hurts the variety in a big way and punishes experimenting with new commanders.

Why do you need PPSHs so badly? If you know the answer skip this paragraph. For those new to this game: Well mainly because the current metagame forces you to be aggressive early on and make a bunch of Conscripts to be able to flank HMGs, get some map control, harass enemy`s fuel income and prevent/delay the PIV train. The fact that soviet buildings take a lot of time to put up means you need at least some Conscripts in any case unless you just give up map control entirely. Without PPSHs you will be left after the early game with bunch of Conscripts that loose their effectiveness extremely quickly, once the Grenadiers get their LMGs it`s lights out basically. That way you are gimped for the rest of the game.

Now the proposal is an obvious one. Make the PPSH upgrade gobal, that is make it the same way LMG upgrade for Grenadiers is. Which is why I think it would be fair as well, basic infantry on both sides having the option to upgrade their weapons without having to pick a specific commander to do so. This would make all the other soviet commanders actually viable and the game more varied and fun as a result.

Two concerns may arise. 1) What about the commanders that have the PPSH upgrade now? Well give them something else, simple as that, there is plenty of stuff, especially with the units/abilities recently introduced. 2) Soviet players could hold on to munition in the beginning of the game, not using Oorah etc. to buy the upgrade ASAP which would ruin the early early game balance. Solution: make the upgrade unlock after the tier 1 building is up.

Just for the record and inb4 ppl show up screaming trying to derail this thread into another Soviet vs German OP claims - I play both factions and actually prefer Germans for 1v1s so please lets stay on topic. I only want more variability from the game since it makes it more fun.

1) How would that be fair asymmetrically considering native Merge and Oorah?

2) How would that be fair considering Commander Sov infantry choice options?
Example: Resulting in mixed PPSH + Guard or Shock builds.

3) Arent Penals supposed to be fulfilling the role you are trying to globally make universal on Cons, which at cost, already are more cost effective than Grens?

4) Whats your ladder page?

1) How would that be fair asymmetrically considering native Merge and Oorah?

2) How would that be fair considering Commander Sov infantry choice options?

3) Arent Penals supposed to be fulfilling the role you are trying to globally make universal on Cons, which at cost, already are more cost effective than Grens?

1) and 2) Of course it would be fair. Soviets have PPSHs on Conscripts already anyway, it just limits your commander options.

3) No.

Ok, unreasonable troll identified.

Request denied due to lack of any supporting arguments, objectivity or considerstion of the wider meta.

Nice try to masquerade your post as a "reasonable attitude" tone, but you clearly dont deliver on that.

Ok, unreasonable troll identified.

Request denied due to lack of any supporting arguments, objectivity or considerstion of the wider meta.

Nice try to masquerade your post as a "reasonable attitude" tone, but you clearly dont deliver on that.

Read the very last paragraph of my original post and stop derailing every thread on this forum please.

Have to agree here with Nullist. Conscripts have their share of unique abilities e.g. Merge and Oorah. No reason to change that unit in any way. Besides, I think the variety comes actually more this way, you have to select whether you want Commander that has better conscripts or do you center your choices around tanks, support units etc.

All you had to do, was answer reasonably to reasonable questions about your proposal.
You xhose not to.
My questions didnt derail anything.

make penals viable, problem solved. with a global conscript upgrade people would never ever build penals again, not like anyone does anyway
spamming 10 conscripts all with ppshs doesnt really sound like it would give more variety

Agreed with da hammer. Penals are where its at to begin diversifying Sov non-Commander infantry builds.

(It wont even take much adjusting, and hasnto be done carefully so they dont overlap with Commander infsntry, or become to powerful in conjunction with them. Penals +Cons is relstively simple equation, but PPSH Cons + Commander infantry, is a much more hairy burger).

All you had to do, was answer reasonably to reasonable questions about your proposal.
You xhose not to.
My questions didnt derail anything.

Okey I know you are trolling as usaual but for the sake of the argument... Saying something is unreasonable is not an argumnet. That is only your opinion and you are welcome to think so.

Btw you keep on editing your original response which doesn`t look reasonable or fair to me

Once again - what you are describing in 1) and 2) as an undesirable result of the change IS ALREADY THE SITAUTION IN GAME TODAY. PPSH + guards/shocks, or PPSH + merge etc. that is already in the game. So that is NOT a result of the proposed change. The result would be only more variability, therefore more fun. If you say that is not fair, you are saying the game is already not fair and PPSH should be made mutually exclusive to other things you mention. Do you want that? Then be a man and propose it straightaway.

3) would work if you could use Penals INSTEAD of Conscripts which you can`t so you will still be left with bunch of useless Conscripts later on.

There you go, the same response only in more words.


@Hammer

spamming 10 conscripts all with ppshs doesnt really sound like it would give more variety

Once again, already in the game. PPSH as a gobal upgrade doesn`t change anything in this aspect. Otherwise I agree with making Penals more viable, perhaps lower the cost and adjust/nerf them accordingly.
__________________________________________________________________________
All you guys are arguing for is for people to continue picking Guards Rifle Combined Arms / Soviet Shock Army in every game.

So what do you mean by "global upgrade"?

At what cost?
At what tier?
How many PPSHs?
How do you asymmetrically justify that with Cons native Merge and Oorah?
What is your ladder page?

just give them global SVT upgrade like BARs in v.CoH. It could be unlocked after building either t3 or 4. I think that'd work...
Or just increase the Dps through vet... or anything to make them more viable in lategame.

So what do you mean by "global upgrade"?

At what cost?
At what tier?

The cost and tier have to be so they prevent the creation of "new AssGrens", I suggested unlocking at tier 1. Maybe that is not enough? Feel free to suggest your solution. I`ll be interested to hear people`s takes on this. Maybe unlock at tier 1 + raise in cost? Or something entirely different?

PPSH upgrade now costs 40 munitions instead of 20. Did I miss that in patchnotes somewhere or was that a stealth change?

Post edited to include 3 further relevwnt questions.

Also, when I asked about cost, I was soecifically asking for a number.

PPSH upgrade now costs 40 munitions instead of 20. Did I miss that in patchnotes somewhere or was that a stealth change?

Huh? Haven`t seen that in any patchnotes. *goes in game to check it out*

Ignore nullist, he does not even play the game. He just likes trolling Soviet balance tbreads.

Ignore nullist, he does not even play the game. He just likes trolling Soviet balance tbreads.

What are Soviet balance threads?

All I see are balance threads.

Maybe you are wearing somekind of special glasses?
Maybe red-tinted?

So what do you mean by "global upgrade"?

At what cost?
At what tier?
How many PPSHs?
How do you asymmetrically justify that with Cons native Merge and Oorah?
What is your ladder page?

You weren't asking me, but I'll give it a shot-
Cost- 200MP/60F would seem reasonable. About the price of a shock unit- the T70- not too little, so the german player can capitalize on seeing PPSHs with the appropriate counter (another MG?)- but not too much such that it becomes impractical.

What tier? After all conscript upgrades from the HQ, and after one of the two tiers (T1 or T2) are built. So that's 150 fuel- 25+25+40+60- from the start of the match, minus 40(?) fuel the soviet player starts with.

How many? 2 seems about fine currently. 2 PPSHs means conscripts still lose handily to Grenadiers with the LMG, but they put up a good fight and can win with a well placed molotov.

How do you justify it? Soviet teching places more emphasis on the Conscript as the mainline fighting unit, as seen from it being the only combat unit out of T0 and all other tiers taking a long time to build. This is as opposed to the Wehrmacht, where the T1 building is quick to finish and built right at the start usually, and provides a balanced mix of units that should supplement each other. Observe the rifle/volk dynamic in coh1- the rifle was better than the volk, and significantly better with BARs, but wehr T1 was balanced to american T1 because wehr T1 was built with the whole combined arms thing- MG, infantry, sniper- working together to fight american barracks with only one main fighting unit- the rifleman.

What does that mean in this context? The conscript squad could be better than the grenadier in terms of utility, and approach it it terms of combat strength, because the soviet system forces the soviet player to rely on the conscript alone for the early game whereas the german system promotes the use of the entire T1- not grenadier spam alone.

Ladder page? http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198047219124

Please guys, stay on point. These personal attacks are poison. I would rather hear your solutions how to delay the PPSHs in order not to screw the early game balance.

So what do you mean by "global upgrade"?
How many PPSHs?
How do you asymmetrically justify that with Cons native Merge and Oorah?
What is your ladder page?

In my OP I didn`t propose any changes to the upgrade, only to make in non-comander-specific aka "global" (which may be a confusing term, in that case I am sorry). So the same amount of PPSHs as before.

Why do you need justification? As I said multiple times already, you already have Guards + PPSHs + Oorah + Merge + Hit the Dirt in the game. Or Shocks + 120mmm mortar + PPSHs + Oorah + Merge. I just want to be able to use more Commanders without sacrificing PPSHs since it`s detrimental to mid/late game.

Why would I tell you that, especially considering your posting history full of ad hominem arguments. This would only lead the discussion into more e-peen contests and away from the topic. Not relevant, find flaws in my argumentation, not in my person.