I'd be happy for officers to be moved to 1.5 unlocks so long as base teching was reduced in cost. As it stands I don't replace officer squads after they have been wiped. Although I do normally let the captain squad get down to one man then just use him for the supervision ability.
USF got too many buffs
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12 Mar 2019, 19:33 PM
#101
Posts: 1097
12 Mar 2019, 22:36 PM
#102
Posts: 5279
Why would removing the officer from the first part of the tech need then to be cheaper? 200mp isn't really a whack of mp- Soviet shell only 40mp less from the word go and don't have the option for flexible or frankly useful infantry unless they do. Soviet also need to drop 240mp*2 to field proper tanks on top of the 160mp again with no free squads. The officers don't need to be gifted for it to be balanced, allowing them to be purchased along side the mg/at gun and yknow, actually something you want would go a long way I think.
#stalinwept
12 Mar 2019, 22:47 PM
#103
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
Actually my suggestion was that the officer comes with the second unlock and not optional.
We considered that and decided it would be worse than the current system.
Forcing USF players to have an officer early on is better than forcing them to have an officer later on. The early timing of officers was chosen because that way they don't come out AFTER you already built all of your mainline units. Previously, you had to get 3 or even 4 rifles before you teched...at which point you would be stuck with 4 or 5 infantry squads - usually more than you wanted. Attaching officers to the second unlock would bring that exact issue (that I would say we managed to fix) back. Now, you can build two squads then the officer, or very comfortably build three squads before your officer.
Basically, that suggestion brings back one of the key issues we wanted to fix with the rework, and even besides that, I honestly can't see what benefits it brings.
12 Mar 2019, 23:18 PM
#104
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
Why would removing the officer from the first part of the tech need then to be cheaper? 200mp isn't really a whack of mp- Soviet shell only 40mp less from the word go and don't have the option for flexible or frankly useful infantry unless they do. Soviet also need to drop 240mp*2 to field proper tanks on top of the 160mp again with no free squads. The officers don't need to be gifted for it to be balanced, allowing them to be purchased along side the mg/at gun and yknow, actually something you want would go a long way I think.
Because 200 manpower is 200 manpower (and really, the officer is a 280 manpower squad). You don't need to draw comparisons to other factions because they're entirely different and you could go on forever. "Soviets have flamethrowers," or "Soviets get 6 man squads," or "Soviets have mines." Just compare "new" USF to "old/current" USF. It's a 280 manpower nerf compared to current usf centered around the early-earlymid stage of the game. If you think USF needs a nerf around that time then say that instead of drawing some incomplete comparisons to other factions.
Personally, I don't think you could do a 280 manpower nerf to any faction (without buffs elsewhere) without making the faction underperform.
12 Mar 2019, 23:38 PM
#105
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
We considered that and decided it would be worse than the current system.
Forcing USF players to have an officer early on is better than forcing them to have an officer later on. The early timing of officers was chosen because that way they don't come out AFTER you already built all of your mainline units. Previously, you had to get 3 or even 4 rifles before you teched...at which point you would be stuck with 4 or 5 infantry squads - usually more than you wanted. Attaching officers to the second unlock would bring that exact issue (that I would say we managed to fix) back. Now, you can build two squads then the officer, or very comfortably build three squads before your officer.
Basically, that suggestion brings back one of the key issues we wanted to fix with the rework, and even besides that, I honestly can't see what benefits it brings.
In the current set up I personally end up having all 3 officer unlocked. If the officer did not come with the first unlock but with second the change would be actually close to original design when one usually ended up with 2 officer. The timing would also be closer to original design.
Because 200 manpower is 200 manpower (and really, the officer is a 280 manpower squad)...
Actually Lt used to cost 300 and Captain 320 they ninja buff to 280 with the latest patch, they do come with Thompson, smoke grenade, shared experience, no tech weapons and other abilities.
12 Mar 2019, 23:55 PM
#106
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
If the officer did not come with the first unlock but with second the change would be actually close to original design when one usually ended up with 2 officer.
The original design where you could basically choose between either losing the match to vehicles or losing the match to infantry?
13 Mar 2019, 00:17 AM
#107
Posts: 450
I kinda waiting until the next tournament to see how usf will perform.
13 Mar 2019, 00:27 AM
#108
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The original design where you could basically choose between either losing the match to vehicles or losing the match to infantry?
If you want to troll pls do not quote me.
If you want to mention history thou I suggest you get your facts right, USF where actually very strong for quite some time and it was actually the buffs that other faction received that left them behind.
13 Mar 2019, 00:31 AM
#109
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
If you want to troll pls do not quote me.
If you want to mention history thou I suggest you get your facts right, USF where actually very strong for quite some time and it was actually the buffs that other faction received that left them behind.
Strong for reasons unrelated to teching or their tech structure. They were strong in spite of it, not because of it. When USF no longer had its crutches removed (armor company, rifle company), it was considered weak.
13 Mar 2019, 00:36 AM
#110
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
In the current set up I personally end up having all 3 officer unlocked. If the officer did not come with the first unlock but with second the change would be actually close to original design when one usually ended up with 2 officer. The timing would also be closer to original design.
Actually Lt used to cost 300 and Captain 320 they ninja buff to 280 with the latest patch, they do come with Thompson, smoke grenade, shared experience, no tech weapons and other abilities.
So then you want to worsen a faction's design because of how you personally choose to play the faction? If you're going double officer, you build your mainline around that fact. Don't get three rifles - the new system allows you to viably go only two rifles.
Also, I know LT used to cost 300 (I thought captain used to cost 300 too...). It used to be slightly undercosted because of the BAR (300 manpower is preferable to 280/60, I'm sure most would agree). Now that it has no bar, its roughly worth 280, which is what they currently costs. Regardless, it doesn't matter what they USED to cost because their current value is around 280 manpower. What I said was both correct and relevant. What you said was also correct but also irrelevant.
13 Mar 2019, 00:47 AM
#111
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Strong for reasons unrelated to teching or their tech structure. They were strong in spite of it, not because of it. When USF no longer had its crutches removed (armor company, rifle company), it was considered weak.
At this point I am not sure what and why we are debating.
The original design of USF was to have limited access to support weapons but units that are OP to compensate.
You want to call that "in spite" or "because" I am not going to argue about it, since it really makes not difference to me.
There where patches that they one of the strongest allied faction and they are the reason HMG42 was move to T0 for ostheer. For many patches players had to rely on snipers and kubels to be able to compete with them.
Imo the chances in armor or rifle company had less impact than the buffs axis faction progressively got to cope with Soviet being OP.
13 Mar 2019, 00:53 AM
#112
Posts: 2358
To be fair, all factions designs have went through the window at this moment. Its a sad thing to see, because its also true that a game with a semi-symetric degign like AoE can be very competitive and fun, games with drastically more assymetry become more challenging and also puts the player inside the game rather than being like a chess game, each attitude matters.
USF redesign was good, dont get me wrong, now its training weights have been released and its natural to see some "OPness" in their new configuration, being it factual and real or an ilusion.
USF redesign was good, dont get me wrong, now its training weights have been released and its natural to see some "OPness" in their new configuration, being it factual and real or an ilusion.
13 Mar 2019, 01:00 AM
#113
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
So then you want to worsen a faction's design because of how you personally choose to play the faction?
Ok at this point the debate has become too personal and non constructive for my taste.
The whole point of the redesigning was to promote back teching and back teching leads in having all 3 officer out.
If you're going double officer, you build your mainline around that fact. Don't get three rifles - the new system allows you to viably go only two rifles.
Also, I know LT used to cost 300 (I thought captain used to cost 300 too...). It used to be slightly undercosted because of the BAR (300 manpower is preferable to 280/60, I'm sure most would agree). Now that it has no bar, its roughly worth 280, which is what they currently costs. Regardless, it doesn't matter what they USED to cost because their current value is around 280 manpower. What I said was both correct and relevant. What you said was also correct but also irrelevant.
Few remark before closing:
A unit value does not change because it was ninja discounted, its value was estimate to 300/320 for years even when the free weapon where removed.
An Officers is superior to riflemen hence it has a higher value. In fact in the latest patches they have received buffs in performance and since the time it hit the field is earlier the "value" is actually higher than before the patches.
You can see the price of the Captain at 320 in the USF guide:
https://www.coh2.org/guides/18795/u-s-forces-unit-guide
Captain
"The Captain and his command squad can improve the actions of nearby infantry and are heavily armed. Gains veterancy from nearby allies. Effective at medium range vs. infantry and vehicles." 320 8
Bye bye.
13 Mar 2019, 01:14 AM
#114
Posts: 5279
The free officers served a purpose of granting increased flexibility via map control due to the old USF's reduced capacity to field team weapons. That restriction has been removed and the countermeasure should be adjusted accordingly. Make em WORTH buying, but make em need to be bought
#stalinwept
13 Mar 2019, 01:16 AM
#115
Posts: 450
We need more time to see if usf is balanced or not.
13 Mar 2019, 01:54 AM
#116
Posts: 2358
We need more time to see if usf is balanced or not.
Not at all, it aleady shows its good/bad sides
13 Mar 2019, 03:00 AM
#117
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedI think a fuel increase for the m20 is needed to compensate for the cheaper Lt. The cheaper officers was meant to reduce the cost of unlocking at guns and mgs, not getting vehicles faster.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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13 Mar 2019, 07:45 AM
#118
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I think a fuel increase for the m20 is needed to compensate for the cheaper Lt. The cheaper officers was meant to reduce the cost of unlocking at guns and mgs, not getting vehicles faster.
Do you have the old values and new one, my understanding is that the M20 actually comes later.
13 Mar 2019, 08:02 AM
#119
Posts: 810
I think a fuel increase for the m20 is needed to compensate for the cheaper Lt. The cheaper officers was meant to reduce the cost of unlocking at guns and mgs, not getting vehicles faster.
I think a fuel increase for the m20 is needed to compensate for the cheaper Lt. -> LOL
"compensate" is so magical easy word
13 Mar 2019, 09:06 AM
#120
Posts: 528 | Subs: 1
Ok so you remove free officer, but you will compensate with free nades or free weapon upgrades or free emplacements, right? Just like the axis factions?
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