Simple OKW Redesign

Collecting a few ideas from the forum into a single, very straightforward OKW tech rework. The idea is to keep it as simple as the USF one.

• T0: Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers, Raketenwerfer, Obersoldaten, Kubelwagen

• T1: LeIG, IRHT, 250 Halftrack, Flak Halftrack

• T2: HMG34, Luchs, Puma, Mortar Halftrack

• T3: Panzer IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Panther, Stuka

Obersoldaten LMGs require two trucks. If Obersoldaten as the first unit are too powerful, the unit itself can be gated behind a truck call-in (like the 221) or a set-up truck (like the HMG34).



It's loosely based on USF: one tier gets vehicular indirect and small-arms suppression, the other gets an indirect fire team weapon and vehicular suppression.

Earlier Obers provide a much-needed alternative to Volks spam, although they may need some retuning for the much earlier timing.

The 250 standard HT provides a versatile unit to support T1 builds. It can fill a wide array of roles with infantry garrisoned inside, and is particularly strong with the Feuersturm doctrine.

The 250 MHT provides T2 with indirect fire, and it's cheap enough (30 FU) to not slow OKW's teching as hard as Stuka would.

The Stuka being in T4 prevents the very early Stukas causing problems in teamgames, and means that Battlegroup builds aren't screwed when they need late game rocket artillery.

My cursory thought is that this would be a buff to OKW and further push T2, both things that I'm sure many people would agree do not need to happen.

T2 now has cheaper, more reliable indirect fire, and t1 no longer has access to the mg34.

Obers arrive sooner too, so you would probably need to nerf them (check their stats).

I also don't see any concrete benefits, design wise.

Not bad but Obersoldaten would come way too early. I also dont understand why OKW needs MHT when they have Leig and Stuka already.

Axis players:
Penuls 2 stronk, such stronk inf should never be in early tier!

Also axis players:
Lets put Obers in T0!
Also remove any and all possible faction disadvantages or reason to backtech later from going T1 or T2, because reasons!

Also why does OKW need a rework? The faction is fine as it is.

Axis players:
Penuls 2 stronk, such stronk inf should never be in early tier!

Also axis players:
Lets put Obers in T0!
Also remove any and all possible faction disadvantages or reason to backtech later from going T1 or T2, because reasons!

I've never complained about Penals. I like Penals. Penals are good.

T0 Obers would obviously need a balance pass.

If by 'faction disadvantages' you mean stuff like pre-rework USF choosing between no suppression or no AT gun, UKF lacking basic indirect fire or something as basic as snares and Sov's basic infantry having the utility they rely on shoved behind a crippling sidetech barrier, then yes, I'm all for removing 'faction disadvantages', and I very much approve of the direction the balance team is taking things.

Also why does OKW need a rework? The faction is fine as it is.

Is it? It's powerful, but that power, like pre-SBP UKF, comes from a few very cost-efficient units compensating for an otherwise very awkward faction design.

Jae For Jett's convinced me that the suggestion in the OP isn't the solution, but that doesn't mean there's not a problem.

My cursory thought is that this would be a buff to OKW and further push T2, both things that I'm sure many people would agree do not need to happen.

T2 now has cheaper, more reliable indirect fire, and t1 no longer has access to the mg34.

Obers arrive sooner too, so you would probably need to nerf them (check their stats).

I also don't see any concrete benefits, design wise.

I think that's a fair assessment.

Assuming T2 is Luchs/Puma/Stuka, what would you want from Battlegroup other than a faster T3 to make it a meaningful choice?

Assuming T2 is Luchs/Puma/Stuka, what would you want from Battlegroup other than a faster T3 to make it a meaningful choice?

That's a tough question. T2 is, to my understanding, powerful because of how well it synergizes with commanders and because it allows you to not "play fair." You leverage powerful light vehicles to avoid needing to use team weapons, to avoid bleed, and to counter your opponent's team weapons (hence why I called it not playing fair). That puts you ahead in manpower economy and prevents your opponent from establishing themselves on the map - your army becomes super mobile and low bleed. Further, the low bleed facilitates OKW's doctrines. With T1, you would probably have your 4 volks then get an mg34, and end up effectively maxing out your army due to bleed. With t2, you have your 4 volks, get a luchs which critically does not bleed you manpower, then later get a jaeger/falls squad with your accumulated manpower. More well known than that is where you spam light vehicles then get a command panther, I don't think I need to explain why mech is better for this.

The point I'm getting at is that if you're going to go t1 and play a fair, static/defensive game, why even go OKW? T1 OKW is just a worst ostheer with a better early game. At least if you go ostheer, you have a good standard anti tank gun, snipers, easy to use indirect fire, and an excellent HMG. Any design for T1 thats main draw is giving them tools that ostheer has (indirect fire, healing, troop transport and reinforcement - I wouldn't say the flak halftrack has any real draw, design wise) will just make t1 OKW a worse ostheer (or a better ostheer, in which case ostheer gets picked even less).

I don't have anything off of the top of my head that could make T1 attractive yet distinct from T2 and from ostheer, but hope that this can point discussion in a good direction.

I like the 250 idea as it would provide the OKW with a mobile reinforcement point, something which they are probably the only ones lacking, but I don't think a lot of people would agree with the T0 Obers as evident from this topic.

Maybe a mod would be nice to prove your point and idea? Just a suggestion, to see how things go and what needs tweaking.

I also hope that they revamp the UKF similarly to how they did the USF after/alongside the new commander patch, or maybe the OKW Idk.

The point I'm getting at is that if you're going to go t1 and play a fair, static/defensive game, why even go OKW? T1 OKW is just a worst ostheer with a better early game. At least if you go ostheer, you have a good standard anti tank gun, snipers, easy to use indirect fire, and an excellent HMG. Any design for T1 thats main draw is giving them tools that ostheer has (indirect fire, healing, troop transport and reinforcement - I wouldn't say the flak halftrack has any real draw, design wise) will just make t1 OKW a worse ostheer (or a better ostheer, in which case ostheer gets picked even less).

That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.

In that case, what if T1 was a defensive light vehicle tier?

Firstly, put the LeiG in T0 with the HMG34 and lock them both behind a sidetech. Not cripplingly expensive, but expensive enough to be worth skipping if you can manage your vehicles well.

Then T1 has three of the following in it:

• 250 Halftrack (Ostheer German Infantry Doctrine)
  
• 250 Mortar Halftrack
  
• 251 Flak Halftrack
  
• 221 Scout Car (balanced like a USF M20 Utility Car)
  
• Funkwagen Vampire Halftrack
  
• Goliath
  
• Second Panzerschreck for Sturmpioneers
  
• IRHT
  
• Jagdpanzer IV

Could you build a T1 that competes with T2 but doesn't kill it out of those units?

or simply put obers in tier 1 without lmg ? they would work like PG but long range

or simply put obers in tier 1 without lmg ? they would work like PG but long range

Something like Obers » T1, Stuka » T3, IRHT » T2?

That'd definitely shift some power to T1: very strong early infantry and they don't get screwed out of the Stuka later on.

It doesn't address the bleed problem J4J pointed out though, not with the reinforcement cost of Obers. Would T1 with Obers (probably instead of the IRHT) just end up a worse/better Ostheer?

Is it? It's powerful, but that power, like pre-SBP UKF, comes from a few very cost-efficient units compensating for an otherwise very awkward faction design.

I dont agree with this at all.

I think that all OKW units are decently balanced other than maybe the Raketenwerfer which is just a bit too cheesy. Ideally it should only be able to cloak while being stationary but get a 5th man in exchange to make it harder to get wiped. KT also needs some buffs, maybe turret rotation speed and earlier access to the spearhead ability.

All the other units OKW has are decently balanced.

The only thing that OKW units need is a veterancy requirement patch. Leig is way too hard to vet up compared to mortars, that´s why it feels so lackluster. Sturmpioneer veterancy requirements are a bit too high. KT vet requirements are completly retarded at the moment and need to be lowered.

The weird part about obers is that they're just better vanilla volks without the lmgs, so I'm just not really sure they'd be a meaningful choice. That and they'd have to be heavily rebalanced to not just seal club everything as a first unit. Imagine an ober and a sturmpio going up against a rifle and a rear echelon or a CE and a penal. There'd literally be no way to win as the allies in that matchup.

Also the thing about t2 being strong enough as is.

I dont agree with this at all.

I think that all OKW units are decently balanced other than maybe the Raketenwerfer which is just a bit too cheesy. Ideally it should only be able to cloak while being stationary but get a 5th man in exchange to make it harder to get wiped. KT also needs some buffs, maybe turret rotation speed and earlier access to the spearhead ability.

All the other units OKW has are decently balanced.

The only thing that OKW units need is a veterancy requirement patch. Leig is way too hard to vet up compared to mortars, that´s why it feels so lackluster. Sturmpioneer veterancy requirements are a bit too high. KT vet requirements are completly retarded at the moment and need to be lowered.

+1 vet requirements on those units really do suck. Not sure I remember the last time I saw even a vet 2 or 3 sturmpio.

I'd say it's a bit much to compare OKW to pre (or even post) SBP brits. The only disadvantage with the way their army is structured by comparison is they have a split tech tree. Brits have to crutch on certain stuff because they still lack some basic tools like garrison clearance and mobile indirect and they have hardly any unit variety in t0 and 1 at all in terms of infantry and vehicles that fill different roles (and only 1 call-in combat infantry unit lmao).

OKW needs Obers in tier 4 to counter the inevitable flood of Allied infantry mid-late game, when early units like the Flak HT, Luchs, Volks and HMG 34s are no longer adequate. It would hurt them if their only good late game AI is behind one of the techs that is usually skipped. A P4 is easily countered by a pair of ATG (talking team games here).

Mortar HT is also a dangerous idea, because OKW is a very mobile army with fausts everywhere and a mortar HT would be nearly impossible to counter. It would probably synergise too well. A Puma protecting the mortar HTs from early vehicle dives with Volks and HMG holding off the infantry would make them untouchable.

To start with i really like the idea of considering reteching for OKM, i mean it had so many changes lately it has an uneven balance situacion, too much cheese on one side (volks, stukas, raketen) and way out nerfed iconic units (FlakHT, KT, JP4).
IMO OKM should ve revisited in the early inf ground first, since it has less options than other factions, i mean its volks spam or dual spio opening.

I think Obers on T0 is a good idea but behind tech, LMG upgrade behind even more tech (T4 maybe). Because unvetted obers have it too rough against vetted riflemen/penals (I know its the worst case scenario) but giving them a new role, as an early defensive squad (like a gren clone, without fausts) can leave volks for other changes/nerfs. Maybe Obers can be behind T1, to force an AI/AT situation too.
Edit/Added: Early game should favour allies to push otherwise axis OST defensive tools must get nerfed badly, obers must come as the lategame mainline inf not the new bullies in the neighborhood.

I like also the MortarHT for Indirect fire, also making stuka a docrtinal option is a viable solution to keep it strong as it is (maybe on firestrum commander)
Edit/Added:This makes OKM able to use double smoke options, one with LeiG and the other with the mortarHT. Smoke its a great unconventional tool, well themed to OKM.

Im not sure about 250 being in the OKM rooster, i find it lackluster but with Spios seems interesting concept. If you remove HMG34 and use 250 as suppression plattform, it can be OKish but it should be tested before, its the OKM theme but a way radical change too.
Edit/Added:If 250 becomes the standard suppression tool for OKM, it should get a firing cone range increase, a little to say the least, and can be combined with obers as a defensive measure, sounds pretty interesting, also micro intensive

If T1 focuses on logistics as a defensive tool (FlackHT,IRHT,LeiG,250) then T2 should focus on Target picking tools (Pumas, luchs, MortarHT), i like this idea and you could push it even further a little more, I.e. goliaths can only be deployed from T2, HetzersFTanks, Ostwinds, Stukas if doctrinal and so on.
Being said this, luchs,flakHT should be rebalanced if drastic changes were made like removing HMG34 and stukas

I need to say that OKM tank situation is pretty weird too, panther spams shouldnt be a thing on OKM, maybe for OST but not for OKM. Limit the panther build limit to 1, make it a panther commander stock (and please lets fix the panther commander free call-in in spec ops, its a cheaty way to get a tank.) This forces to combine tank arms rather than massing them up. More OKM theme there.
If panthers get limited maybe it would be worth to get a KT to double on AT

I want LeFh to be removed at all from OKM commanders, swapping it for stukas maybe. Again trying to separate OKM from a OST strongest units copy.

A new OKM tech should change both, OKM needs and objectives. The way I see OKM is a very high risk faction with moderately high reward, that focuses on pure aggressive tactics with unconventional tools, like denying enemy territory rather than capping for yourself, diving into specific important objectives rather controlling frontlines, using tanks as defensive tools rather offensive, fear propaganda and ambushes.

I like your proposition overall

Something like Obers » T1, Stuka » T3, IRHT » T2?

That'd definitely shift some power to T1: very strong early infantry and they don't get screwed out of the Stuka later on.

It doesn't address the bleed problem J4J pointed out though, not with the reinforcement cost of Obers. Would T1 with Obers (probably instead of the IRHT) just end up a worse/better Ostheer?

they would have penal role as i said before even without the mg34 they till pack a punch, especially if they come early where there are few tanks, u could reduce the cost by just a bit (340/350)if needed and then u can swap STGs on volks for the mp40s and give them some received accuracy with vet so they now work either as close range assault troop or long range meat shield

u know like vCOH where they were balanced

they would have penal role as i said before even without the mg34 they till pack a punch, especially if they come early where there are few tanks, u could reduce the cost by just a bit (340/350)

Fyi obers already cost 340. They used to be 400 manpower, and the lmg34 was 60 muni (and there were a bunch of iterations before that...). Now they're 340 manpower, and the lmg34 is 80 muni.

Fyi obers already cost 340. They used to be 400 manpower, and the lmg34 was 60 muni (and there were a bunch of iterations before that...). Now they're 340 manpower, and the lmg34 is 80 muni.

oh yea for some reason i keep thinking they are 360 mp, anyway even to 330 if they feel underwhelming without LMG but at 340 they should do their job of eraly/mid game long range dps squad with only the kar89

Sooner Obers also benifit crazily from spec op stgs. They would likley need a nerf or timing change if Obers come sooner.

Sooner Obers also benifit crazily from spec op stgs. They would likley need a nerf or timing change if Obers come sooner.

or simply lock those to tier 4 too ?