Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

KT isn't 260 fuel, your calculations are still wrong.

And last time I checked three OKW tiers cost more than 2 UKF tiers.

So it is. Had the old value in my head.

So the most expensive option is as much as the Croc/FF, the other three stand at cheaper.

I'm not including teching because the mix of tech tiers, sidegrades and optional unlocks make it a complex mess that deserves a thread of its own - but in general, works out fine and with similar total expense. The CP delay for the croc and builsing delay for the KT stack up and unless you float a lot and double down on inf AT neither is your first vehicle.


Regardless, the point was much, much simpler.

Croc + Firefly is good. Kf course it is. It's nearly 400 sodding fuel spent on vehicles. Any conbination of 400 fuel of vehicles is going to be a tour de force.

And JP4 is not the unit intended to engage high armored units. Its why Panther exists.
What's your point?

If you had bothered to read into the context to which I was replying, you'd know that it was exactly my point that there are a lot of high armored units that the Jagdpanzer IV can't effectively engage. I never said that it should be able to. I was simply disproving SupremeStefan's claim that the IS-2 is the only high armor unit (compared to the Jagdpanzer IV's penetration values) on the Allied roster and nothing more.

The Jagdpanzer IV has 200/185/170 pen.

Comet has 290 armor.
Churchill has 240 armor.
Churchill AVRE has 290 armor.
Churchill Croc has 290 armor.
KV-2 has 300 armor.
KV-1 has 270 armor.
KV-8 has 260 armor.
ISU-152 has 340 armor.
Pershing has 300 armor.

The IS-2 is not the only Allied tank with high armor.

Stock panther is there to deal with hard targets designed specifically not to be as vulnerable as mediums.

If the allies want a high armouered unit they need to select a doctrine specifically for it-brits aside. And again, the okw have specialized AT vehicles. The panther is there specifically for hard allied targets, like the JP4 excels against mediums and TDs. Listing off all the axis units with high armour, regardless of intent behind it isnt going to change the intended role of the su76 while the su85 sits with its over buffed pen itching for hard axis targets.
The is-2 remains the only heavy tank that will really give the axis a hard time and the JP4 will have an easier time getting through even allied purpose built heavy tanks that the old su85 would through axis stock units

So it is. Had the old value in my head.

So the most expensive option is as much as the Croc/FF, the other three stand at cheaper.

I'm not including teching because the mix of tech tiers, sidegrades and optional unlocks make it a complex mess that deserves a thread of its own - but in general, works out fine and with similar total expense. The CP delay for the croc and builsing delay for the KT stack up and unless you float a lot and double down on inf AT neither is your first vehicle.


Regardless, the point was much, much simpler.

Croc + Firefly is good. Kf course it is. It's nearly 400 sodding fuel spent on vehicles. Any conbination of 400 fuel of vehicles is going to be a tour de force.

And it you have provided no reason why it should become better by buffing the FF.

Croc is 230, FF is 155, combined total 385.

KT is 260. IRHT is 5. That's 265 between them. The most expensive of the alternative third vehicles I listed is the stuka at 100, bringing the bet cost to at most 365 - 20 under the cost of a Croc and Firefly.

The tulips are absolutely not a standard vehicle calculation and please stop acting like A) thet they always hit and B) that there isn't a minimum of 150 mu invested into a potentially wasted ability in order to get there.

Tips aren't free. Tulips don't track or autofire. They're a huge munution sink that sort of comoensates for the FF being hideously cost inefficient. I would much rather spend the MU on an IR pathfinder barrage for more damage and crits than have to buy a 155 fuel lackluster TD for the generous ability to then also spend hundreds of MU when a JgPz or Jackson don't need to spend a dime.

And you should stop acting as if tulip do not exist, it is simply misleading. If you actually read my post I said that one could redesigning tulip to make the FF more consistent.

As for your KT argument it really makes little sense Croc sees allot more action than KT. In addition not taking into account tech cost is misleading especially since a croc FF combo only needs T3 tech.

Stock panther is there to deal with hard targets designed specifically not to be as vulnerable as mediums.

If the allies want a high armouered unit they need to select a doctrine specifically for it-brits aside. And again, the okw have specialized AT vehicles. The panther is there specifically for hard allied targets, like the JP4 excels against mediums and TDs. Listing off all the axis units with high armour, regardless of intent behind it isnt going to change the intended role of the su76 while the su85 sits with its over buffed pen itching for hard axis targets.
The is-2 remains the only heavy tank that will really give the axis a hard time and the JP4 will have an easier time getting through even allied purpose built heavy tanks that the old su85 would through axis stock units

Jesus, I know what the intended role of the Jagdpanzer IV is. That was not my point at all. I literally mentioned that in my post above yours. My point was nothing more than showing that the Allies do have quite a large number of high armor targets, after SupremeStefan claimed that the IS-2 was supposedly the only high armor unit.

I find it strange in a thread which has descended into allied TDs op, no one has mentioned Ele or Jt (which are near unkillable when microd and defended) and have no problem killing any allied tank or td.

On the subject of the firefly I'd rather tulips were removed and the unit improved in other ways. I think a small cost reduction is in order however.

I find it strange in a thread which has descended into allied TDs op, no one has mentioned Ele or Jt (which are near unkillable when microd and defended) and have no problem killing any allied tank or td.

That's bullshit. The Elefant and JT are designed to be flanked. The supporting AT can be swarmed by infantry and it's essentially a free kill after that. After the Elefant nerfs the ISU-152 is way better than any of the German counterparts simply because of the ability to fight infantry while being almost as good as the German stuff in the AT department.

That's bullshit. The Elefant and JT are designed to be flanked. The supporting AT can be swarmed by infantry and it's essentially a free kill after that. After the Elefant nerfs the ISU-152 is way better

Bullshit they are still op but less than before. "Designed to be flanked" good advice on paper but shitty in real life best couter is priest spam or lucky offmap. If u think its easy to flank then maybe u play against players who rush elefants to your base. But agrree that isu is monster

Since we seem to be drifting of topic, back to the question:
"Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?"
It simply does not.

I has an inconsistent performance due to the design of tulips.

In addition UKF recently received snares and there is hardly anything indicating they need a buff in the AT department.

You all forget one Thing: FF need much less resources to tech/ get...it comes in the t3 from brits...while all other lategame TDs comes t4. so it must be more expansive...

You all forget one Thing: FF need much less resources to tech/ get...it comes in the t3 from brits...while all other lategame TDs comes t4. so it must be more expansive...

No we don't, and no, it doesn't have to be.

Brits have an advantage when it comes to tech rushing, yes, but they also have to pay above and beyond for things other armies get for free.

It isn't a disadvantage for brits. But the firefly still takes a long time to produce, so it isn't impacting on light vehicle play, and UKF total teching is comprable to every other army.

30 T1, 120 T2. Costs for unlocking their T1 optional unit, cost for their T2 packages. Bolster, weapon racks and grenades. In total their full tech tree costs over 200, much like everyone else. Not the most expensive, but comprable.

Tech and build times are what balance out the unit arrival. Making a unit more expensive just because it can arrive early is god awful deaign that punishes longer games with cost inefficient units, punishing a player for every one they have to build beyond the first. It's not good design and it is not to be encouraged.

If you honestly believe the firefly arrives too early, put it behind the hammer/anvil. Don't make it too expensive for what it does.

Another fact to consider is that firing tulips makes the fire fly vulnerable to flanks.

That's bullshit. The Elefant and JT are designed to be flanked. The supporting AT can be swarmed by infantry and it's essentially a free kill after that. After the Elefant nerfs the ISU-152 is way better than any of the German counterparts simply because of the ability to fight infantry while being almost as good as the German stuff in the AT department.

Have you thought about building a Ostwind or bunkers to protect the flank from infantry? Allot of players I see in team games lose P4 or Stug in the game and refuse to rebuild anything else but an Ele. You need to support your Ele just like you support the ISU with Cons and SU-85s.

If your post isn't remotely relating to the firefly is shouldn't be in this thread.

And JP4 is not the unit intended to engage high armored units. Its why Panther exists.
What's your point?

But panthers get wrekt by a single or a 2 tank combination of the listed before, so its not a reliable (not so cost efficient) counter per se.
KT should ""counter"" any of the listed tanks but hey, its a meme tank nowdays...

But panthers get wrekt by a single or a 2 tank combination of the listed before, so its not a reliable (not so cost efficient) counter per se.
KT should ""counter"" any of the listed tanks but hey, its a meme tank nowdays...

How panther is wrekt by any single one of them, when it outranges all of them?
Only vetted pershing and IS-2 stands to it.
And KT roflstomps over all of these tanks, what are you tring to say? KT AT performance is excellent, its AI is lacking.
Also, what does it have to do with firefly terrible effecitveness without pumping 100 muni into it every minute or so?

You all forget one Thing: FF need much less resources to tech/ get...it comes in the t3 from brits...while all other lategame TDs comes t4. so it must be more expansive...

OKW Panther arrives much earlier then Ost panther and is in lower tier, it needs much less resources to tech/get it then ost panther.
I understand that according to your very own reasoning you are in full support to nerf OKW panther?

It would be nice to see the Firfly's price drop a bit, 400 mp and 145 fuel would be reasonable for it's performance. Maybe make the Churchill 490 mp 175 fuel and Comet also 490 mp 175 fuel to compensate.

Someone gives a lot of facts and important details of the current ingame balancce situation and then

No we don't, and no, it doesn't have to be.

Yeah theres the problem...

Brits have an advantage when it comes to tech rushing, yes, but they also have to pay above and beyond for things other armies get for free.

Psst that how assimetrycal balance is, just saying...

...30 T1, 120 T2. Costs for unlocking their T1 optional unit, cost for their T2 packages. Bolster, weapon racks and grenades. In total their full tech tree costs over 200, much like everyone else. Not the most expensive, but comprable.

Do not derail the point, UKF CAN rush a single FF faster than any axis can their TDs, not to mention its even more hurtful to tech on axis than UKF

Tech and build times are what balance out the unit arrival. Making a unit more expensive just because it can arrive early is god awful deaign that punishes longer games with cost inefficient units, punishing a player for every one they have to build beyond the first. It's not good design and it is not to be encouraged.

If you honestly believe the firefly arrives too early, put it behind the hammer/anvil. Don't make it too expensive for what it does.

Game balance (equally oportunities and time for every player), im just ending saying that, you get it?

How panther is wrekt by any single one of them, when it outranges all of them?
Only vetted pershing and IS-2 stands to it.
And KT roflstomps over all of these tanks, what are you tring to say? KT AT performance is excellent, its AI is lacking.
Also, what does it have to do with firefly terrible effecitveness without pumping 100 muni into it every minute or so?



OKW Panther arrives much earlier then Ost panther and is in lower tier.
Nerf OKW panther?

No no, im just saying its an expensive trade. Of course if panthers get an edge on LoS it can turn things in its favour and no Panthers are not UP nor anything similar. As for the wrekt word i meant it as it does get a big pounding when fighting rather than countering the other tanks like an AT gun would.

But im going to disagree only with the KT, it doesnt roflstomps any of those tanks, not even close. KT has good AT but again its the most expensive trade and it doesnt complete its job