Blitzkrieg tactics balance issue

Hi there.

I'd like to raise an issue I've been experiencing with the one vet ability on German tanks called Blitzkrieg tactics.

The problem I see with it is that it's possible to use this ability when the vehicle has engine damage which kind of nullifies the point of having engine damage since the tank itself can move at approximately 80% of it's normal movement speed when this ability is active.

I am completely fine with the ability itself because Germans needs to be able to quickly flank SU-85's when needed but;

Being able to recklessly attack your opponent and get engine damage through conscript anti tank grenade throws and then safely drive away because of Blitzkrieg Tactics combined with Panzer Tactician smoke upgrades is not balanced, especially when a Panther is extremely hard to kill when it reaches Vet 2 or more.

Solution: Remove the ability to use blitzkrieg tactics when engine is damaged.

Hi there.

I'd like to raise an issue I've been experiencing with the one vet ability on German tanks called Blitzkrieg tactics.

The problem I see with it is that it's possible to use this ability when the vehicle has engine damage which kind of nullifies the point of having engine damage since the tank itself can move at approximately 80% of it's normal movement speed when this ability is active.

I am completely fine with the ability itself because Germans needs to be able to quickly flank SU-85's when needed but;

Being able to recklessly attack your opponent and get engine damage through conscript anti tank grenade throws and then safely drive away because of Blitzkrieg Tactics combined with Panzer Tactician smoke upgrades is not balanced, especially when a Panther is extremely hard to kill when it reaches Vet 2 or more.

Solution: Remove the ability to use blitzkrieg tactics when engine is damaged.

+1 - Smoke (Panzer Tactician ability) should also cost more than 15 munitions considering it breaks Guard Rifles 40 munitions snare ability. These are two get out of jail free abilities that allow Ostheer tanks to ignore "combined arms" attempts to combat them. Blitz shouldn't be useable with engine damage and smoke cost needs to go up.

^ Right ... and do you know how super annoying and OP that idiotic button ability is (of course you never played against button so it means nothing) ?

See a German tank ? Just use the magic button to insta stop any German tank long enough to AT grenade it to stop it completely while getting hit by an su85.

The smoke allows you to only escape out of ONE button. If you have a 2nd guards squad, you can still button up. As long as this annoying button is there, smoke should stay at the same cost.

In fact panzer tactician smoke should be available to more doctrines.

^ Right ... and do you know how super annoying and OP that idiotic button ability is (of course you never played against button so it means nothing) ?

See a German tank ? Just use the magic button to insta stop any German tank long enough to AT grenade it to stop it completely while getting hit by an su85.

The smoke allows you to only escape out of ONE button. If you have a 2nd guards squad, you can still button up. As long as this annoying button is there, smoke should stay at the same cost.

In fact panzer tactician smoke should be available to more doctrines.

Well then make smoke exactly as expensive as the button ability?

The button ability is only available on doctrine specific infantry, just like the smoke. The smoke however is a get out of jail card in every situation that you don't want to be in while the button ability is only able to hold a tank for a few seconds.

Also, that other guard rifle infantry would mean spending another 40 munitions to hold it once more, brining us to a grand total of 80 munitions to hold a tank for a few seconds. Assuming that rifle squad is on the right side of the smoke which it usually never is because the tank uses the smoke when it's driving away.

To finish this off, the units able to damage the tank who just used smoke in your example are most likely behind the smoke barrier and unable to damage the tank.

It's an earned vet ability. So it's a reward and should stay as is.

From a role playing standpoint I look at it like the crew pushing their engine to the limit trying desperately to get out. You can easily catch it with a t34 or su85, it isnt faster with damaged engine and blitz then the other sov tanks. Though when I am a sov and see this it does get annoying, especially when all you need is that last hit from the at gun! Ugh!!

I agree with the OP: engine damage should disable blitz. I have much easier time using german tanks versus soviet tanks because of this ability plus the cheap smoke grenade ability. In fact, I see it all the time, players using german tanks throw them into extremely reckless position/situation and then just get out of it with those abilities.

There is one situation, however, where I think blitz on an engine damaged tank is kind of fair. Its when you get rammed.

^ Right ... and do you know how super annoying and OP that idiotic button ability is (of course you never played against button so it means nothing) ?

See a German tank ? Just use the magic button to insta stop any German tank long enough to AT grenade it to stop it completely while getting hit by an su85.

The smoke allows you to only escape out of ONE button. If you have a 2nd guards squad, you can still button up. As long as this annoying button is there, smoke should stay at the same cost.

In fact panzer tactician smoke should be available to more doctrines.

There's so many things wrong with your post I dont' know where to start.
1. You know nothing about me so don't make assumptions. I play both factions equally so ofc I've played vs. Guard's button.
2. What exactly is OP about this button ability considering a far cheaper ability negates it? (I know you won't answer this one)
3. Yes, obviously a second button ability, now 80 munitions, will catch the tank if it is still in the area for some reason once the smoke has cleared? Your point?

@Tristan - the fact that it is a vet ability is irrelevant - we're talking about whether it's a balanced ability in performing even through engine damage - meaning it can soak up any combined arms defenses (mines, AT nades, etc.) without any real risk at all. I use it myself and know it's too good.

You are talking about this in conjunction with a commander ability, so isn't that aspect irrelevant in this discussion?

However I do agree that if the engine is disabled rather than damaged the ability should be 100% negated. So combined arms would still work in that case. Since the tank is vet 1 and has been rewarded for fighting and staying alive, I believe it should still be able to use its ability with just engine damage. But hey we can agree to disagree.

It's an earned vet ability. So it's a reward and should stay as is.

From a role playing standpoint I look at it like the crew pushing their engine to the limit trying desperately to get out. You can easily catch it with a t34 or su85, it isnt faster with damaged engine and blitz then the other sov tanks. Though when I am a sov and see this it does get annoying, especially when all you need is that last hit from the at gun! Ugh!!

+1 especially if you consider how easily engines get damaged.

Also panzer tactician is perfectly fine as is. You know that you can hold LoS by just having a unit beyond the smokewall?

keep in mind that the engine is not completely broken/disabled
It's an "light" engine damage

and the smoke is fine for doctrines. The only way to to block the button ability. And 40 munition to hold tanks for a few seconds is a "free" kill if there is an SU85.

honestly its not that Blitzkrieg is OP, its other abilities that suck and need improvement. Smoke might do well with an increase to say 25 munis perhaps? I'd also like to see smoke in new doctrines.

I wish we could design our own doctrines

keep in mind that the engine is not completely broken/disabled
It's an "light" engine damage

and the smoke is fine for doctrines. The only way to to block the button ability. And 40 munition to hold tanks for a few seconds is a "free" kill if there is an SU85.

Yeah well while the Soviet commander needs to carefully think through his actions a german commander can rush in his tank and should he find himself in a tight spot he just smokes himself out of there almost for free.

EVEN if the Soviet player uses anti tank grenades and manages to damage his engine he often can still use the blitzkrieg ability to get himself out of there.

Two get out of jail cards is alot more than the zero get out of jail cards a Soviet player has.

I still think this issue is one of the top reasons any 2v2/3v3/4v4 becomes unbalanced lategame because you simply have no way to counter hit and run PzIV's and Panthers just rushing in, taking out whatever you have and then running away with blitzkrieg despite the engine being damaged.

Blitz + engine damaged is pretty much the same speed a T34 runs at normal speed. How the hell is that balanced?

Carefully placing mines, keeping conscripts in certain locations to drop a tank grenade to hinder their advance is just a big joke. This game is not about tactics when you can ignore tactic elements through one unbalanced ability.

+1 for no blitz with engine dmg.

Button ability is broken. It's reasonable that a doctrinal ability can cancel it out. Making smoke 45 munis is too much.

Hi there.

I'd like to raise an issue I've been experiencing with the one vet ability on German tanks called Blitzkrieg tactics.

The problem I see with it is that it's possible to use this ability when the vehicle has engine damage which kind of nullifies the point of having engine damage since the tank itself can move at approximately 80% of it's normal movement speed when this ability is active.

I am completely fine with the ability itself because Germans needs to be able to quickly flank SU-85's when needed but;

Being able to recklessly attack your opponent and get engine damage through conscript anti tank grenade throws and then safely drive away because of Blitzkrieg Tactics combined with Panzer Tactician smoke upgrades is not balanced, especially when a Panther is extremely hard to kill when it reaches Vet 2 or more.

Solution: Remove the ability to use blitzkrieg tactics when engine is damaged.

+1...
Germans don't use this to flank,they use their magic buton to escape with a low health tank....this aplies to smoke as well,the other magic escape buton

I feel that absolutely nothing is wrong with Vehicle smoke.

I feel GUARDS-DP-BUTTON is very very very well costed (1CP, 360 mp guards, 60 muni DPs, 45 muni ability).IMO, button works perfectly as its ONLY counter is smoke; another doctrine specific ability. If the german has/did not choose smoke, DP guards become even better.

If anything, guards are very proficent "vs. all comers" when fully equipped. Guards have not been 'changed/balanced' much and 3-4 squads of them can still kill p4s, especially with 'marked target'. Also, vet 2-3 guards with dps can hold their ground against pgrens and gren-LMGs. Plus, Anti-Inf Grenade is icing on the cake (even thou it sometimes doesn't work ).

As for blitzkrieg, i do agree that it should be disabled when engine dmg'ed. BUT, the argument of:

It's an earned vet ability. So it's a reward and should stay as is.

I like very much. This is very true and is not useable 'RIGHT AWAY'. I think since it's a vet 1 ability, it is not one of the bigger problem of 'balance' than everyone is complaining about and IMO, shouldn't change.

The 'strategy'

the Soviet commander needs to carefully think through his actions a german commander can rush in his tank and should he find himself in a tight spot he just smokes himself out of there almost for free.

is keeping your german tanks alive as A.) Good russians should be setting up mines MORE than germans, b.) should be getting some sort of eventual anti-tank weps (guards, atgun, mini-at guns, t34s, vet2-3 T70, su-76, su-85) by the time the german gets their T3 tank. Also, the soviets can do the same "care-free" armor rush as you explain, with the T-70 or the Kv-8 (or Kv-1!); especially with an early T-70 push as most germans won't/might not have anything else but regular-gren-shrecks and maybe a smelly Pak.

The more i play as germans, the more i see how effective T34s are. They pretty much go toe-to-toe vs p4s now and it all depends on who gets a side/rear hit 1st or that lucky "big hit" while both are under 25%.

off topic, i'm really happy with T-34 vs p4 balance now

I love the t34 now, they really improved it a lot. 2 t34s and a p4 is toast. Even if you get in trouble ram the p4 and you really got your tank battle won. Anyway I hope that nothing changed in regards to original topic. Smoke is doctrinal and is German answer to soviets AT (germs don't have a button ability or marked target).

I don't see blitz with engine damage as much as a problem, tank still is slow and crippled and could be caught if chased with at guns, su85, and t34s.

Necroed thread is still poignant, and kudos to Tivook for the OP.

Engine dmg is too central to balance to allow for, not only nominal speed, but also a max speed ability on engine dmged vehicles.

Two considerations:
A) Blitzkrieg should not be entirely negated, because the achievement of Vet, and the deserved ability, should be rewarded.
B) BUT Sov should also be rewarded for causing an engine crit.

Solution?

Reduce Blitzkrieg speed on an engine dmged vehicle to an amicable compromise.
Say, about 50% of normal speed.

This warrants the Muni cost and deserved priviledge from achieving V1 for Ost, as well as rewarding the Sov player for achieving an engine crit.

I think 50% is a reasonable compromise, so that Ost Vet is not negated, and Sov gets its due for its own achievement.

No.
I'd say the best option is to disable Blitzkrieg when engine is damaged. You repair your tank, you'll get blitzkrieg back. Seems pretty fair.

no blitz when engine is critical seems fair