Ostheer MG/Early

I used to think the MG42 was just far too good. But throw a few hundred, or thousand hours into the game and you realize that half the time your MG42 isn't even that useful unless you micro it like a bastard. Allies can flank the shit out of everything with their infantry, and unless you're on the ball the MG42 will be in the soviets hands, which can spell a really bad time for you.

MG42 is fine, the maxim alright, keep in mind it's really hard to take out given the 6 man crew. When the maxim was a pinning machine, it was next to impossible to dislodge it. Cons can always reinforce you, while the MG42 has to run the moment it's flanked or a molotov hits it, nades 1 shot it.. yeah..

MG42 is fine. This is more of a test of your micro skills, and MG's are always better in pairs.

If you land an molotov on an mg42 it means you flanked it and got the chance to stand there for 18 years while Yuri had a flashback of playing ball with his dad as he tried to throw. You can flame nade a maxim frontally with Volks and don't even get the opportunity to retreat because of the death loop.

I agree that the 42 is fine, but saying that the maxim is too is disingenuous.

If you land an molotov on an mg42 it means you flanked it and got the chance to stand there for 18 years while Yuri had a flashback of playing ball with his dad as he tried to throw. You can flame nade a maxim frontally with Volks and don't even get the opportunity to retreat because of the death loop.

I agree that the 42 is fine, but saying that the maxim is too is disingenuous.

That's fair, I think the only way they could balance the maxim would be to drop it to a 4 man, which it should as USF/OKW/Brit all can have 5 man squads yet the mgs are 4.

That's fair, I think the only way they could balance the maxim would be to drop it to a 4 man, which it should as USF/OKW/Brit all can have 5 man squads yet the mgs are 4.

They can't fix the death loop because of mechanical limitations so unfortunately the 6 man is a requirement unless they can somehow otherwise improve durability (since retreating is an options often) . Perhaps increasing the price to reduce spam but increasing range so it's further removed from combat and dropping to 4 men? Or 5?
I think they need to bite the bullet and admit that they can't balance a 6 man MG to the same cost of other mgs and and have it not trash. There is alot of comparison to the 42 and the maxim because they cost the same and the performance difference is astounding. It doesn't work. Make them 5p% more expensive to account for the 50% more men and make it actually do its job.

How about we swap the Maxim for lease lend Vickers and call it a day, then? Beacuse seriously, the death loop is the worst.

What would it be like swapping the maxim and the DSHK? Then the Soviet have an MG that does what it's supposed to (they would pay for it of course) in their core but can have an ostroppen/m10 style cheap alternative MG in doctrines. I know it's kind of off loading the problem but tbh I'm all about fixing the core, stock units first then addressing weak doctrines

Well Brits also get their HMG at T0.

All this is, is a flavour choice. if you want to move the HMG into the barracks, fine, but move the grens into T0, which would probably be a buff for them. So go ahead.

i really don't think theirs anything wrong with the HMGs (except the maxim), maybe the .50 cal.

So, that is what I think about the Mg situation. Most of that stuff is in my focus since years:

Overall:
HMGs arrive way too early, HMG42, Vickers and Maxims, all together.

Ostheer: Change HMG42 with HMG34, T1 instead of T0. Grenadiers into T0 instad of T1. Buff dps of Pios to UKS sappeurs.

UK: Vickers into fist HQ-upgrade, Pioneers get normal start units.

Soviets:
Maxim isn't bad. If Ostheer gets nerfed it is ok. Make molotove non-tech instead, arriveable since start. Nerf penals DPS to conscript's, give them a DPS upgrade to specialize. PTRS or AI upgrade, only.

OKW:
HMG34 changed with MG42. Still arrives late, so let it be a good choice.


Assymetric designe fails are:
- Ostheer poor early defence, makes HMG needed (fix by Gren in T0, better Pios)
- Vickers is needed because the hole fraction is crap. Maybe earlier pios will fix the problem. They are in a good spot.
- Maxim is only bad, because all other HMGs arrive way too early. If you make cons more attractive (non-tech molotiv) and HMG42 disappears from ultra early soviets are fine. Beside that Penals are completely fail designs. Nerf them.

You forgot the part of buffing grens, allowing them to shoot the LMG42 on the move, and being able to buy 2 of them, that way they become a competent mainline inf to face early riflemen and penals.
Now, seriously because some people dont get the offensive/defensive design of factions the solution is to make factions a clone of each others? No way.

So, that is what I think about the Mg situation. Most of that stuff is in my focus since years:

Overall:
HMGs arrive way too early, HMG42, Vickers and Maxims, all together.

Ostheer: Change HMG42 with HMG34, T1 instead of T0. Grenadiers into T0 instad of T1. Buff dps of Pios to UKS sappeurs.

UK: Vickers into fist HQ-upgrade, Pioneers get normal start units.

Soviets:
Maxim isn't bad. If Ostheer gets nerfed it is ok. Make molotove non-tech instead, arriveable since start. Nerf penals DPS to conscript's, give them a DPS upgrade to specialize. PTRS or AI upgrade, only.

OKW:
HMG34 changed with MG42. Still arrives late, so let it be a good choice.


Assymetric designe fails are:
- Ostheer poor early defence, makes HMG needed (fix by Gren in T0, better Pios)
- Vickers is needed because the hole fraction is crap. Maybe earlier pios will fix the problem. They are in a good spot.
- Maxim is only bad, because all other HMGs arrive way too early. If you make cons more attractive (non-tech molotiv) and HMG42 disappears from ultra early soviets are fine. Beside that Penals are completely fail designs. Nerf them.

You are out of touch.
I'll try and address it, I'm on mobile so sorry about the format:
OST:
Do you understand how the faction is designed? It's centered around the mg42. Like legit. The 42 was moved to t0 specifically so it could support even 0cp alternative builds, because it's the focus of the faction. Pios were give sandbags and increased LOS SPECIFICALLY to support the MG42. USF was given a whole new unit in their roster to accommodate the 42. It's timing and performance is SPECIFICALLY been curated as is its support and its counters.
And you want to replace it with a worse version that comes later? The mg34s performance is justified by their strong infantry play right out of the gate. You think grens and an mg34 are going to hold up against multiple riflemen squads? How about ass engies? How about a flamethrower? Or your new spawn sappers in a bren carrier?

Would the Pio buffs take into account the timing difference? Or that the brits lack any other infantry but their sappers and Tommies (one of which is a long range squad only?)
Would they lose access to their flame thrower, their MG Bunkers? Their OHK light tanks mines? Their recon level LOS? Their ability to heal units? Is there maybe more to the balance of the 2 units than "they are engineers with Smgs?

If you want cqb troops that are a bit more impactful you are in luck, Ost has that in t2! You can even quick tech it if your MG game is strong.

Brits:
yea! Sappers will show Sturmpios what for! I'm sure that match up will be incredible as I think about it assuming Tommies are at least still t0- Sturm rush the enemy sappers who will have no chance at all since they wouldn't even have RE/CEs ability to try and engage from range, just auto retreat followed by no map control and the enemy out producing your infantry and out capping you from the word go.
For Ost the matchup would be RNG, well actually in favor of Ost since you didn't say any changes but giving pios the same dps as sappers, so all the advantages listed above PLUS being 10mp cheaper in value, with 40mp cheaper grens, then you tech up later, after paying more for less units, that are less effective than their Ost counterparts, (sniper, mortar, arguably the mgs, depending on if you want a Supression platform or dps platform)
I would recommend ass grens against your attempt at the brits as they will have no capable infantry and no means to stop the ass grens. That or super Pio spam.

SOVIET:
Maxim isn't bad? It doesn't do its only job. And no, changing out the 42 has NO impact on the maxim because that's not its intended role, the counters will REMAIN EXACTLY the same, except pios will now be a bit better when they catch the flank and grens will be a bit sooner. Much buff. You now fight long range infantry slight faster and their close range infantry is slightly stronger. If you think changing the m42 with a delayed 34 is going to "fix" the maxim you clearly have no idea what the purpose of mgs are (and seeing your proposed changes with no care for the impact I can confirm that suspicion)

And adding the molotov for free isn't going to make conscripts good either. It's a step, but not all it's going to take. You clearly over estimate how impactful 80mp and 10 fuel is. Cons will still be unreliable, molotov will still suck, but now you can get a T70 out 15 seconds earlier so I guess that fixes the faction?

While I do want to see penals have to chose their package I can't help but notice you didn't mention a cost reduction to penals leaving us with:
"cons with a free molitov or tech 160mp and 10 fuel for cons WITHOUT a molotov, but an extra 60mp for a satchel and the ABILITY to pick an upgrade path. A1. I can tell you out a lot of thought into this and it's definitely not just" nerf the things I don't like and buff the axis a bit"

OKW
I'll admit you put a modicum of thought into this one, looking at unit timing, but looking at timing alone isn't enough--volks and sturms are aggressive as all hell as it is, being able to back that up with the best MG in the game is just ignorant. Much like ostheer was focused around their MG by design, okw was designed with aggression in mind... And you want to give them the best defensive MG....

Oir changes to Ost remove their ability to reliably defend their potent team weapons without the aggression to demand the terms of engagement. The 42 is as it is for a reason and you chose to ignore them all.

Sappers and a much later MG isn't going to fix the brits, it's making them unplayable against 1/2 of the factions entirely and trivial against the other.

You could remove all the other mgs in the game and they would still be walked up to and flame naded into a deathloop or face fucked by 2 or more infantry squads or any infantry squad att all gets beside it (bonus if they have autos because then it will almost always deathloop) the only thing you can count on NOT happening is it stopping infantry in its arc unless they just attackmoved at it so they could stop in its arc.

Not facing an MG and having free molitovs inst goi g to make cons trade well against grens or volks and nerfing the tits out of penals isn't going to help the faction too. You'll see more cons for sure, but that's because your changes leave not a single alternative (like really... 160mp in tech and 300mp for CONSCRIPTS WITH A SATCHEL? come on guy....)

You forgot the part of buffing grens, allowing them to shoot the LMG42 on the move, and being able to buy 2 of them, that way they become a competent mainline inf to face early riflemen and penals.
Now, seriously because some people dont get the offensive/defensive design of factions the solution is to make factions a clone of each others? No way.

Go look up how much damage the LMG42 does before you suggest that again.

...

I am on my mobile phone too, so shortly:

1. The Maxim for Soviets is only a gimmick, the fraction ins't designed to have a strong HMG in their standard line-up. It was designed to be an offensive weapon so support Cons. You can't own a strong suppression plattform with large crew AND spameable infantry.

Now you have a useless defensiv and offensive HMG, but better Cons and OP Penals (as alternative).

-> Back in time there was also a balance reason why german vehilces get way larger impact if engine was damaged. Back in time, where ramming was way stronger. The game is full of broken old balance stuff.

2. And to focus Ostheer to have a strong HMG and brunker was stupid since release. That would be logical if you replace Grenadiers with Osttruppen. And add the strong offensive-units by tech.

-Osttruppen
-HMG42
-Sturmgrens

But if you wan't to touch less:

-stronger Pios (only in close range) so
-Grens T0
-HMG34 in T1 (only an option)



3. Brits are cancer since release. The hole fraction design is broken. I wish back the old brits, in their beta time. The logic behind the actual british line-up isn't there. Def-bonus for their line-infantry AND a HMG getting a def-bonus and makes damage as fu**?
-> if you don't want too touch the real design-problem, then the best solution would be:
* Tommies start with 5 men, can only pick one Bren. Get their def-bonus like regular in green cover.
* Vickers gets ~ stats of HMG34, good pin, bad dps. Range-Bonus in trench.
* Give them a normal mortar-crew with less range -> range-bonus in trench.


Still, over the years the game isn't better designed. But the balance-team of relic raped all units to make it playable. And the community-team don't want to touch the real design problems.

Go look up how much damage the LMG42 does before you suggest that again.

I was addressing widerstreit comment about nerfing to the ground the MG42. Take a moment to read the post before mine and you will understand why I said so.
Even darkarmadillo pointed out how bad idea that was. I was being irrational to show how much unbalance that will bring

If all the MGs were to suppress the same, but only MG42 had a higher dmg output. Will that be ok?
I mean, i want to conserve OST original design, just that. Vickers could still have high damage as it is now, but MG42 will have an upper hand with its higher ROF.
Maybe that or a new ability for MG42 to have that "unique" touch it always had

Okay for who? I don't think the HMG42 is being seriously considered for adjustments by anyone in a position of authority.

Okay for who? I don't think the HMG42 is being seriously considered for adjustments by anyone in a position of authority.

The whole thread wants to nerf HMG42, did you really missed that part? Its like denying the elephant inside the room.

As long as HMG42 is designed to outperform other similar HMG (by the game and not because i say so) if you bring suppression par on all hmg to a similar level (I LITERALLY MEAN IT, ALL HMG WILL SUPPRESS THE SAME REGARDLESS ROF) the only way to keep HMG42 as a better option, is to bring something new.

I suggested a dps increase, but anything can count. I will give a few more ideas:

New ability: Burst fire. HMG42 fires in burst for xx seconds, dealing more damage but suppressing less.

New upgrade: Mg Scopes. Increase LoS (to almost self spotting range)

New Ability: Fire at will. HmG42 fires without aiming at the whole firing range, suppressing all squads present in the cone.

New ability: (passive) defensive training. The HMG42 is trained to deal with incoming fire more effectively when in garrison or heavy cover.

New ability: Scout ahead. Send a crewman in prone position to the pointed location (range: 15) to scout for the MG. Last 30 seconds or until clicked again (Need at least 2 man and the scout is vulnerable during ability)

Either that or/and new stats (DPS/LoS/RA. etc)

Why exactly hmg42 SHOULD be better option regardless of anything again?
And more expensive HMG42 will still be superior option.

The whole thread wants to nerf HMG42, did you really missed that part? Its like denying the elephant inside the room.

And they have no power to do that.

Why exactly hmg42 SHOULD be better option regardless of anything again?
And more expensive HMG42 will still be superior option.

Since OST was designed to benefit from a better HMG starting point. Its like chess, some players use more some pieces than others. The typical horse/bishop player stereotype.
OST has intrinsec valor into its hmg. But you already know that why do i have to explain it to you? I really mean it, why?

Since OST was designed to benefit from a better HMG starting point. Its like chess, some players use more some pieces than others. The typical horse/bishop player stereotype.
OST has intrinsec valor into its hmg. But you already know that why do i have to explain it to you? I really mean it, why?

And soviets were designed to spam conscripts, get 1 tier for early game and 1 tier for late game.
It doesn't matter how factions were designed in 2013.