Revamping the revamped Firestorm doctrine

Hi guys,
the next patch will hopefully be released soon and we will have an other one in spring who will deliver the 5 new commanders.
I think that would be a good chance to make some necessary changes to the already revamped Firestorm doctrine which is still subpar compared to other OKW doctrines.
I would like to start a discussion about the doctrine - lets find reasonable improvements that dont need much work and could be easy to implement.

Thats the current doctrine:

• Hetzer Flame tank
  
• Assault Package
  
• Incendiary rounds
  
• Opel Blitz Truck
  
• Rocket Barrage
  
  From my perspective "Incendiary rounds" and the "Opel Blitz Truck" are very weak abilities which make the doctrine not very attractive to choose even if i like the Hetzer and the Assault package ability.
  
  A good way to fix the Opel Blitz truck would be Stark's idea:
  Cost: 250 MP and 10 fuel
  • While locked can heal and reinforce nearby units (same as USF ambulance)
  • Can be transformed into mobile resources cash [option available in ostheer version]
  
  
  I see 2 options to replace "Incendiary rounds".
  
  The conservative option: "Incendiary rounds" replaced by "Incendiary bombs". Dont confound it with Wehrmacht's fragmentation bombs. Its an own ability, and a real useful one. Just test it with Sneakeye's famous "All units mod".
  
  The radical option:
  Replace "Incendiary rounds" with an indirect fire call-in unit. This would at least alleviate OKW's problems in this area (especially for players who like to build Luchs / Puma).
  The easy option would be the Wehrmacht's Gr34, a more distinctive option would be the 12cm Granatwerfer 42, a copy of the famous Soviet HM-38 heavy mortar.
  
  
  After these changes the doctrine could look like this:
  
• Hetzer Flame tank
  
• Assault Package
  
• 2 CP: Granatwerfer 42 call-in unit (360 MP)
  
  OR
  
  6 CP: "Incendiary bombs" (160 Mun)
  
• 2 CP: Opel Blitz Truck
  • can heal and reinforce nearby units (same as USF ambulance)
  • Can be transformed into mobile resources cash [option available in ostheer version]
  
• Rocket Barrage
  
  Without big changes the commander would be a lot more attractive than before, don't you think so?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

Seems like good changes. Even though I am not sure why Incendiary Rounds need to go? They just need a slight accuracy buff so they actually go where you want them to go. Agree about the Opel 100%, right now it´s pretty useless unfortunately.

I like the ideas. Even the Granatwerfers for OKW could be able too use incendiary rounds, so they are special.

a. Opelblitz as US ambulance
b. Sdkfz. 251 like Ostheer

Seems like good changes. Even though I am not sure why Incendiary Rounds need to go? They just need a slight accuracy buff so they actually go where you want them to go. Agree about the Opel 100%, right now it´s pretty useless unfortunately.

Could you tell me some ideas about how potential buffs? I would summarize and incorporate them in future posts.
If you have the time - could you pls test the "Incendiary bombs" ability in Sneak Eye's mod? It would be good to get some feedback about it from veteran players like yourself.

The problem of incendiary rounds is that it is only helpful if one goes T1.

An improvement would be if other unit like Puma would also get them.

Else they can simply be replaced by the 250 MHT.

The hezter again forces T3 so the commander forces OKW to go T1 T3 to see the benefits of the commander.

A simply solution would be for hezter to be buildable from HQ and not T3 with either Tech or CP restrictions.

In addition the units rear armor need to go up since it has not turret or AT capabilities.

In addition imo all flamer vehicles should have their DOT removed and their DPS balanced accordingly. The DOT should come from a timed ability.

As for turning the Opel to ambulance I am against argument that since faction A has something faction B should also have access to it.

The Mp40 upgrade also need to be loot at since the units is to weak compared to other CQC units
(probably because other units are OP thou) while it is a unit that shares cooldown for grenades where other units do not (again probably all units should).

As revamp goes one has to decided the power level for commander fro each faction and then start nerfing commanders that are above that power-level. That approach would probably have the more impact in increasing that viability of commander and build orders.

The unit is rather weak but it can simply become cheaper or get more utility.

Doesnt the incendiary round have a significant damage multiplier vs civilian buildings? I think this is the main purpose of this ability, tho I dont understand why it was slightly nerfed a few months ago (barrage shells reduced by 1).

In the open field you wanna stay with HE rounds usually

Doesnt the incendiary round have a significant damage multiplier vs civilian buildings? I think this is the main purpose of this ability, tho I dont understand why it was slightly nerfed a few months ago (barrage shells reduced by 1).

It's barely able to force a squad out of a building, if it manages to hit the building in the first place.


I don't think the ability needs to go, just needs a slight revamp:

• Improved accuracy on ISG incendiary barrage; slightly higher damage versus garrissons and to emplacements (to define its role).

• Add ability for any of the mechanized units. Could be a WP shell for the Puma or enabling the Stuka's incendiary barrage by default.

• This would allow to do a slight rework of the Stuka's incendiary barrage because that one kinda sucks too because of its huge scatter and disproportionally high cost.

Assault Package is the shit (flamer Sturmpios and nuke grenade Volks are god tier) and the Hetzer is a good unit too. The Rocket Arty is very nice too. Only the truck kinda sucks.


To make the Hetzer (and Ostwind) more viable again, I propose to split OKW's T4 into two techs where the first tech unlocks Obers, Ostwind and Hetzer for a reduced tech cost. An upgrade would allow the production of the heavier tanks. See https://www.coh2.org/topic/84982/okw-overhaul-discussion/post/717425.


For the truck it might be best to simply replace it with Ostheer's Opel Blitz truck that can lock down resource sectors, to give OKW more than one commander option to secure more resources.
I think an ambulance-like overhaul has the risk of making OKW's heavy infantry builds (usually blobs) pretty OP and they already have access to static forward healing and reinforcement anyway.



Feuersturm is one of my favorite commanders, though I only use it for the Assault Package, the Hetzer and the Rocket Arty.

Feuersturm is one of my favorite commanders, though I only use it for the Assault Package, the Hetzer and the Rocket Arty.

That's exactly why i opened this thread.
Maybe the current ISG incendiary barrage could be simply merged to an "Special munition" ability. Would provide ISG incendiary rounds and HEAT shells for the Puma = Both tech paths would provide specific advantages.
Replace the truck with an mortar or let the truck lock down resource sectors, the doctrine would be more attractive and as important: It would not need much work from the mod team.

I like the ideas. Even the Granatwerfers for OKW could be able too use incendiary rounds, so they are special.

a. Opelblitz as US ambulance
b. Sdkfz. 251 like Ostheer

+1.

However, assault package needs a buff too.

i agree that the isg flame rounds are awful, slow firing, high scatter and low damage combine for a rather lack luster ability that for its intended role falls way short of grenade assault s
i also like the idea of buffing the opel blitz, as a slow moving, weak halftrack its really nothing to rave about, maybe low key aura effects like cooldown or rof would work? (synergize with both the isg and its flame rounds as a passive player or with mp40 volks as an aggressive one?)

idk

i also like the idea of a 120mm, that would be dope and allow going mech instead of med which would do wonders for the commanders flexibility.

Buff it through the roof like overwatch and armor co

Buff it through the roof like overwatch and armor co

"in an attempt to reduce the over use of JLI, which as you can see by not bothering to even hot fix a price increase we totally stand by the 250mp building spawning 4 man sniper squads effect on balance even though we decided that even non sprinting 2 man sniper squads were OP but enough of that *ahem* we have made some adjustments to the volks mp40 package"
changed from granting a 10% reduction in target size to a 100% reduction scaling with vet (instead of reducing target size that "reduction" now becomes a chance to reflect the damage back at the shooter)
Also now grants 5 weapons
Also no longer mp40s but instead the okw release Ober lmg34
And instead of costing munitions it grants them I guess?

And the opel blitz is now a maus but no longer provides an ability cooldown buff to keep it balanced
Price unchanged.

I dont agree with any of them both. Firstly Incendiary rounds are the only "firestorm" ability. Removing it seems flawed.
Opel Blitz truck is meant to bring a mobile reinforce for OKM, allowing it to push even further its early advantage by burning manpower into a steamroll push. It sinergises with LeiGh too. For me, its a keeper.

HI modteam,
it would be great if you could take a look a the "Firestorm doctrine" after the recent changes to "US Recon doctrine". Both got revamped in 2017/2018 but were rarely used until you made some changes - at least to Recon.
As mentioned earlier in this thread small changes to " Incendiary rounds", Opel Blitz Truck
and Hetzer veterancy could do wonders for "Firestorm" too. I now that you can't do weekly patches and the new commander process should have priority now. But you could incorporate the changes to "Firestorm" if the new commander patch comes out.

For me it would be an important improvement, when the stormpioneers could get the flamerupgrade AND the minesweeper too. Actual I need at least two of them, to get the repairboost and minesweeping ability - and thats a no go, especially regarding the low surviveability in lategame and the huge costs!

Therefore mostly I don't pick this doc.

The incendiary rounds, while inaccurate, do what they are designed to do just fine.

They roast ambient buildings, clear trenches and do an absolute murder job on british emplacements. Also useful for area denial on capture points, particularly cutoffs and VPs.

Aboslutely no need to try reinvent the wheel with them.

Complaining that its only a buff if you build the right building to get them is a totally moot point. Many commander abilities are tied to specific units and tech tiers. If you skip the one your bonus is in that's on you.

If you cannot bear to lose minesweeprs for flamethrowers, again, that's on you. RE and Sappers face the same choice.

The incendiary rounds, while inaccurate, do what they are designed to do just fine.

They roast ambient buildings, clear trenches and do an absolute murder job on british emplacements. Also useful for area denial on capture points, particularly cutoffs and VPs.

Aboslutely no need to try reinvent the wheel with them.

Complaining that its only a buff if you build the right building to get them is a totally moot point. Many commander abilities are tied to specific units and tech tiers. If you skip the one your bonus is in that's on you.

If you cannot bear to lose minesweeprs for flamethrowers, again, that's on you. RE and Sappers face the same choice.

Well, lets agree to disagree about the incendiary rounds which could use a buff imo but whats with the Opel Blitz Truck and the ridiculous high veterancy for the Hetzer?

Well, lets agree to disagree about the incendiary rounds which could use a buff imo but whats with the Opel Blitz Truck and the ridiculous high veterancy for the Hetzer?

Never had a problem with the opel. It's an odd choice for a commander unit but it gives a solid reload buff (not the best buff, but a buff)

It's just an OKW halftrack. No machine gun but a benefit to offset that. Seems fine? What's wrong with being given a mobile reinforce point?

As for the Hetzer, it suffers from being great area denial but not securing many kills unkess your opponent is very bad. I don't imagine a slight tweak akin to the Stuka's veterency buff would be a bad thing. The KV8 used to suffer the same way with its super high price point, in the low point after the turbonerf when it used to nuke bases but before it got un-ganked.

HI modteam,
it would be great if you could take a look a the "Firestorm doctrine" after the recent changes to "US Recon doctrine". Both got revamped in 2017/2018 but were rarely used until you made some changes - at least to Recon.

I now that you can't do weekly patches and the new commander process should have priority now. But you could incorporate the changes to "Firestorm" if the new commander patch comes out.

Feuersturm deserves to be looked into for sure, but the problem is that it can't be justified to buff this commander now while other factions still have lackluster commanders as well. Like USF's Rifle Company or Soviets' Defensive Tactics. Perhaps it can be done in a later minor commanders adjustments / big balance patch, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.

Feuersturm deserves to be looked into for sure, but the problem is that it can't be justified to buff this commander now while other factions still have lackluster commanders as well. Like USF's Rifle Company or Soviets' Defensive Tactics. Perhaps it can be done in a later minor commanders adjustments / big balance patch, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.

Actually the latest patch prove the exact opposite.

The latest 3 patches where fixes on revamped Commander.

Relic could actually achieve allot more with many small fixes than with the continues redesign of the game.