You can't do that in a normal game. Every time you retreat your infantry, you have to get out of your vehicles, to reinforce them. That does not work in competitive games. It sounds good on paper, but reality is different. If popcap abuse was an actual viable strat, Usf would be untouchable in tournaments. You could almost 2v1 with 15 tanks.
Obviously we are talking about different things. You are talking about 4vs4 where USF uses disembark to circumvent pop limit and I am talking about disembarking to reduce one's Upkeep.
Once more what "pros" do is irrelevant in this case.
First half of that statement is completely incorrect.
...
First of all if you want to participate in this debate take the time to read what has been argued before jumping in.
Now you are entitled to have the opinion (if that is your opinion) that having 2 M36 idling around while not facing a single enemy vehicle does not put in disadvantage, but I am simply not going to argue with on it.
I am not surprised to see that you continue your little campaign of "prove Vipper wrong" by taking what I post out of context, but I simply not have any part in it.
Obviously we are talking about different things. You are talking about 4vs4 where USF uses disembark to circumvent pop limit and I am talking about disembarking to reduce one's Upkeep.
Once more what "pros" do is irrelevant in this case.
What the pros do is always relevant, but it more relevant to me than to you. Keeping your jaksons without a crew means you are going to be very static. It is not worth the few extra mp you get a minute keeping them that way.
Again this is not about me or you. I have simply responded to a very specific claim and I really don't see why we are still talking about it, unless one wants to support this claim with some arguments.
No it does not when "pros" do not actaully find themselves in these particular circumstance, like having 2 idle M36s.
Again this is not about me or you. I have simply responded to a very specific claim and I really don't see why we are still talking about it, unless one wants to support this claim with some arguments.
Going double jaksons does not give usf some advantage because they can hop out of them. Usf has been balanced around that mechanic. Posting stats without in-game application is the reason for the argument.
2 Jaksons still take up 32% of your popcap, and US's insane bleed cancels out the 40 mp you get when 2 jaksons have their crews out. Also the original post you responded to never said anything about upkeep. Lago said jakson popcap and the percentage of your army that fills. 40% is still incorrect though.
Usf can dump muni into greatly upping their fuel-less anti infantry, which I think is in part why Jackson's are such an easy choice. If you are dominating the fuel game by all means rush a sherman (kinda like a later, over grown T70) it certainly won't hurt you, but if it's a bit closer going Jackson to back up you BARs is the way to go no question.
But this is about the tiger.
The tiger is a great tank, but it's counters are too effecient against it (a vetted su85 is almost guaranteed to pen it for example) so it's easy to zone.
We could perhaps experiment with additional health, or some other improved durability trait. But at its price and timing having a chance to bounce isn't an unreasonable desire. Now with panthers having less armour than they did in years I don't see why allied TDs can't afford to lose a bit of pen so the limited to 1 and intended to be impactful units can have a bit of breathing room instead of being shut down by a single unit.
Usf can dump muni into greatly upping their fuel-less anti infantry, which I think is in part why Jackson's are such an easy choice. If you are dominating the fuel game by all means rush a sherman (kinda like a later, over grown T70) it certainly won't hurt you, but if it's a bit closer going Jackson to back up you BARs is the way to go no question.
But this is about the tiger.
The tiger is a great tank, but it's counters are too effecient against it (a vetted su85 is almost guaranteed to pen it for example) so it's easy to zone.
We could perhaps experiment with additional health, or some other improved durability trait. But at its price and timing having a chance to bounce isn't an unreasonable desire. Now with panthers having less armour than they did in years I don't see why allied TDs can't afford to lose a bit of pen so the limited to 1 and intended to be impactful units can have a bit of breathing room instead of being shut down by a single unit.
Panthers and tigers can be used to fight infantry, jaksons cannot. Panthers were buffed and are more useful at lower vets than pre-patch. There are 4 tiger docs. 3 tiger docs come with ways to deal with infantry and td spam. Ju-87 with tigers hard counters tanks. Assault support instantly pins infantry and has frag bombs for when the enemy units get to close to the edges of the map. Spearhead has panzer smoke, which is dam useful vs tds. Assault support and lightning war are some of the best doctrines ostheer has. Lightning war was used to counter heavy cav in a tourney. I think hans was in it, but i don't know where to find the game.
Its not like USF infantry is superior to all others or anything though /s
Its not like other factions have way more options or anything though /s
If you want examples wehr has sniper, mg, and mortar available to them within like 30 seconds, okw has sturms as starting unit as well as a t0 light (light light light) vehicle and at gun and mg regardless of tech choice, and both have nondoc elite infantry (pgrens and obers). And usf doesn't have one vehicle in their entire nondoc lineup that doesn't die in 4 at gun shots or less, and not one bit of nondoc flames in their entire arsenal except for WP on the pack howie (which isn't really the same thing). Brits and soviets tend to have them beat in all those departments too.
Panthers and tigers can be used to fight infantry, jaksons cannot. Panthers were buffed and are more useful at lower vets than pre-patch. There are 4 tiger docs. 3 tiger docs come with ways to deal with infantry and td spam. Ju-87 with tigers hard counters tanks. Assault support instantly pins infantry and has frag bombs for when the enemy units get to close to the edges of the map. Spearhead has panzer smoke, which is dam useful vs tds. Assault support and lightning war are some of the best doctrines ostheer has. Lightning war was used to counter heavy cav in a tourney. I think hans was in it, but i don't know where to find the game.
I'm aware of the capabilities of units and abilities in the game. The fact that the more expensive and less ranged tigers and panthers can fight infantry matters not that allied TDs are over performing because a single one is capable of ah utting them down. Tee panthfer is all considered in a better place than before its rebalance but my point still stands its got less armour than it hascin a dog's age and it was the primary reason for allied TDs being so strong. A tiger or KT sghould fee able to bounce shots because of the high investment into a single unit and it should reflect that in effort to take it down mainly becaudse they are limited ti a single one at a time. They NEED to have the ability to do something in the time they around to be even worth consideration as a unit. Panthers can be massed if the resources are there, " that combined with their previously high armour values warrented high chance to pen them. The tiger was an unfortunate casualty to that.
Most USF players preference for Jackson is also linked to the lack of antitank measures. In general, Panther, a non-doctine unit, is very hard to respond with Shermans. You will agree that you need at least three Sherman to deal with one Panther. This does not mean that Panther is OP. anyway, Panther was designed like a TD class, and it is not a problem. However, Jackson is mostly paired with the M8A1, and except for this combination, Sherman or Pershing is the only tank left to the USF. Stug, P4, Panther, Tiger, Elephant and even Brumbar are not easy to deal effectively with Sherman alone without Jackson. This forces USF to choose Jackson.
Sometimes people mention Bazooka and ATG, so in most cases, if you only use anti-tank with Zooks and ATG, you will be dragged into your enemy throughout the game. This is not just a matter of USF, but most factions. So most top players do not use these two units unless they are defensive. While one or two ATGs, Zooks (or Panzersherks) may be used for secondary support purposes, few top players are responsible for main ATs.
Its not like other factions have way more options or anything though /s
If you want examples wehr has sniper, mg, and mortar available to them within like 30 seconds, okw has sturms as starting unit as well as a t0 light (light light light) vehicle and at gun and mg regardless of tech choice, and both have nondoc elite infantry (pgrens and obers).
All of which arnt late game units. Sturms arnt even strong past the first five minutes.
Going double jaksons does not give usf some advantage because they can hop out of them. Usf has been balanced around that mechanic. Posting stats without in-game application is the reason for the argument.
2 Jaksons still take up 32% of your popcap, and US's insane bleed cancels out the 40 mp you get when 2 jaksons have their crews out. Also the original post you responded to never said anything about upkeep. Lago said jakson popcap and the percentage of your army that fills. 40% is still incorrect though.
I never said that it gives them an advantage, pls do not put words in my mouth.
The statement that USF have "insane bleed"is debatable but my point and the fact remains, disembarking unused vehicles reduces the upkeep allowing one to have more manpower/pop not matter how you want to twist.
This thread is about the Tiger and not USF crews I have clearly respond to a claim about pop and your claims and have little to on the subject.
I dislike getting involved in a thread that has 8 pages (and reading them all)
But i feel I'd like to chime in, while trying to overlook my bias for USF.
I'd like to invite people to read the alternatives. I will put my response in a spoiler, relating to m36s, and address the OPs poll after the spoiler its long, so skip to the bottom for my final thoughts on the M36s....
IN REGARDS to the ORIGINAL TOPIC
I don't believe the Tiger needs a buff. Its already a fantastic tank, and exerts pressure like nothing else, Im honestly more scared of a tiger 1 than a KT. its incredibly mobile for its size, and its vet bonuses are actually pretty decent
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