Tiger PzKpfw VI

Wouldn't want a cost reduction as it's already a great tank, that would make holding it for it easier and OP allied TDs needed even more. Increased range could work. That would grant ostheer 3 different options in the 50 range mark of varied dps/cost/durability/ai combinations. I'd be interested in seeing how that pans out.

I dont understand why TD meta is a problem for Tiger as they are hardcounter for heavy tanks?

I dont understand why TD meta is a problem for Tiger as they are hardcounter for heavy tanks?

Because they are not hard counter only to heavy tanks (while being allot cheaper) but to all vehicles and there is great synergy the powerful infantry.

The chance to hit and penetrate the majority of armor is simply way too high.

I dont understand why TD meta is a problem for Tiger as they are hardcounter for heavy tanks?

u play only against AI or ?

If the penetration system worked like it did on COH1, with bouncing shots still doing damage but reduced, then the Tank Destroyers and other forms of AT could see their penetration values reduce.

My personal idea would be to have AT guns do 75% damage on bounce, Tanks Destroyers do 50% and mediums do 30-35%. With lower penetration values then armor in general could tank more but eventually would have to retreat to be fixed. Besides, tanks can only die from a penetrating shot, but every shot that doesn't pen but if it had would had killed the tank would have a guaranted chance to crit, COH2 has more movility crits than any other form of crit, eventually a tank would just get immovilized or with a heavy engine damage, even crew shocked and that would allow for a close in to get the reliable pen and kill.

More importanltly this would make mediums in mass a reliable way to fight heavier armor with some support of a Tank Destroyer.

In the current system Tanks Destroyer have to be way too good and have an almost 100% chance to hit and pen or either tanks just roll around without a care in the world, it would break balance in axis favor by the sole fact that their tanks would almost never take damage.

In any case, a rework of this system seems too much to hope for at this state of the game, but it would be for the best.

Because they are not hard counter only to heavy tanks (while being allot cheaper) but to all vehicles and there is great synergy the powerful infantry.

The chance to hit and penetrate the majority of armor is simply way too high.

And it will stay this high, unless you have a next suggestion, where you'll give all 3 allied factions Panther level tank which would excel at anti heavy duty, but then you'd complain only that kind of vehicle sees the light of the day.

Because they are not hard counter only to heavy tanks (while being allot cheaper) but to all vehicles and there is great synergy the powerful infantry.

The chance to hit and penetrate the majority of armor is simply way too high.

Yea off course they have high penetration because they lack either speed, reload, armor or no turret.

I simply feel that heavy tanks shouldn't be limited to one unit on the field any longer.

No, i don't want that time again like every sane person

And it will stay this high, unless you have a next suggestion, where you'll give all 3 allied factions Panther level tank which would excel at anti heavy duty, but then you'd complain only that kind of vehicle sees the light of the day.

there simply needs to be a way to force RNG to align instead of being unrestricted. the previous su85 AND jackson both had great damage potential, on paper, but in a real match it was quite possible for them to absolutely no damage at all. a 2/3 chance to deal damage could at the roll of a die deal nothing, and that was the best the soviet could do! now its guaranteed to pen all but the absolute heavies armour rendering armour values as a whole redundant

there IS a happy medium to guaranteed to pen negating armour entirely and possibly not doing its job at all if the cards say so- deflection damage.
if, say the su85 for example, had its old pen values, its new vet 2 pen bonus, and deflection damage so that at they very least it can chip away at heavy armour health. the armour of heavy armour would act mostly as a damage reduction against heavy TDs (instead of acting like tissue paper like now)
it would be ~the half way from what we have now.

i only think certain units should get deflection damage, is-2, tiger, panthers, su85, jackson, firefly MAYBE JP4 with vet? units designed to deal with heavy armour but not negating it entirely by design. i dont think that a mass of t34s should be able to chip away a tiger frontally, they should be required to flank it, but proper Tds, SHOULD be able to chip a tank into submission as they are SUPPOSED to counter them.

but armour needs to have value too

Allowing the Tiger to bounce frontal shots a little more often I think would make it a bit more balanced. AT Gun walls and a Single Tank Destroyer seem to be able to shut the Tiger down these days pretty easily. Although I would like to see all call-ins get tied to tech.

Allowing the Tiger to bounce frontal shots a little more often I think would make it a bit more balanced. AT Gun walls and a Single Tank Destroyer seem to be able to shut the Tiger down these days pretty easily. Although I would like to see all call-ins get tied to tech.

Or maybe... just maybe... AT gun walls should be able to shut it down and it is fine?

If the penetration system worked like it did on COH1, with bouncing shots still doing damage but reduced, then the Tank Destroyers and other forms of AT could see their penetration values reduce.

My personal idea would be to have AT guns do 75% damage on bounce, Tanks Destroyers do 50% and mediums do 30-35%. With lower penetration values then armor in general could tank more but eventually would have to retreat to be fixed. Besides, tanks can only die from a penetrating shot, but every shot that doesn't pen but if it had would had killed the tank would have a guaranted chance to crit, COH2 has more movility crits than any other form of crit, eventually a tank would just get immovilized or with a heavy engine damage, even crew shocked and that would allow for a close in to get the reliable pen and kill.

More importanltly this would make mediums in mass a reliable way to fight heavier armor with some support of a Tank Destroyer.

In the current system Tanks Destroyer have to be way too good and have an almost 100% chance to hit and pen or either tanks just roll around without a care in the world, it would break balance in axis favor by the sole fact that their tanks would almost never take damage.

In any case, a rework of this system seems too much to hope for at this state of the game, but it would be for the best.

This.

Yea off course they have high penetration because they lack either speed, reload, armor or no turret.

Whuut? so the Jackson lack speed, reload or armor ? NO! he has all this and 60 Range.
And the "no turret" SU85 have selfspot and requires 0 micro, especially when u have more than one and a Zis...and any form of AT Inf.

right now the Tiger is nothing more than a big heavy target.

He need more Range and a little dmg buff.

I think the tiger is the tits. It's got good accuracy and decent aoe and a great ROF. It's not going to wipe as often as the is-2 but it ain't going to miss as often either. Only problem with it is the stupid op TD meta going on right now.

lol u mean the only thing that usf can do in lategame . Without commander no wolverine no heavy tanks no premium mediums no rocket arty no heavy antinfantry tanks but yes some people say scott is op maybe its true but not really good for camping players and thats the reason why scot sux for me. Anyway its stupid that iam forced evrytime to bulid 2 jacksons i dont like it either but this is the only way to survive. So in my opinion we must nerf jackson and then u can use whatever u want even 222 spam.

lol u mean the only thing that usf can do in lategame . Without commander no wolverine no heavy tanks no premium mediums no rocket arty no heavy antinfantry tanks but yes some people say scott is op maybe its true but not really good for camping players and thats the reason why scot sux for me. Anyway its stupid that iam forced evrytime to bulid 2 jacksons i dont like it either but this is the only way to survive. So in my opinion we must nerf jackson and then u can use whatever u want even 222 spam.

then dont build them and play maybe AT guns or 6Man with double zooks ... just combiend arms and not inf spam back up by jacksons.

then dont build them and play maybe AT guns or 6Man with double zooks ... just combiend arms and not inf spam back up by jacksons.

Same argument can be made for any unit you know. But you made me laugh, was fun to read.

Whuut? so the Jackson lack speed, reload or armor ? NO! he has all this and 60 Range.
And the "no turret" SU85 have selfspot and requires 0 micro, especially when u have more than one and a Zis...and any form of AT Inf.

right now the Tiger is nothing more than a big heavy target.

He need more Range and a little dmg buff.

Jackson got a damage/range nerf long ago and does not have heavy armor like Tiger, Ele or Jagd. SU-85 is a hard counter to Axis heavy armor that can be easily flanked. Allied TDs are not a problem when the units are doing their job as intended.

I voted for Tiger buff but we cannot make this unit into Yolo charge into 2 TDs and or multiple AT guns and come out on top.

I would support a small popcap reduction on it, maybe on all heavy generalist tanks, 21 is too damn high.

Jackson got a damage/range nerf long ago and does not have heavy armor like Tiger, Ele or Jagd. SU-85 is a hard counter to Axis heavy armor that can be easily flanked. Allied TDs are not a problem when the units are doing their job as intended.

I voted for Tiger buff but we cannot make this unit into Yolo charge into 2 TDs and or multiple AT guns and come out on top.

That is incorrect Jackson has the same 60 range it always had.

It might had its damage lowered but it also got a reload buff and a penetration buff.
That Patch actually saw the M36 becoming more powerful so it was not "nerf" overall but a "buff"
(and HP)

Patch history is also rather irrelevant to current state unless someone is actually suggesting reverts.

lol u mean the only thing that usf can do in lategame . Without commander no wolverine no heavy tanks no premium mediums no rocket arty no heavy antinfantry tanks but yes some people say scott is op maybe its true but not really good for camping players and thats the reason why scot sux for me. Anyway its stupid that iam forced evrytime to bulid 2 jacksons i dont like it either but this is the only way to survive. So in my opinion we must nerf jackson and then u can use whatever u want even 222 spam.

Jackson has HVAP, it should the used to face off up armored units, atm its more of a bonus than a requirement as the stock pen is pretty decent. Also flanking with the sherman is plenty reasonable, but despite the massive drop in heavies rear armour people only want to be able to frontally fuck everything. Heavy armour should encourage the enemy to do something different but weither you are facing a light car to a super heavy the counters are the exact same. There is no difference in a p4 and a KT in how you approach fighting it, which is problematic. Yes, the single TD design is not a great one and admitting that and trying to find a solution is a better approach than it's all we can do so this is the way it has to be" and pretending it's not a problem.