Conscript Utility

Small sample size

Final offtopic from me.

You can try, guess and do whatever test you want. That won't change how the game is coded.
Because it seems math is hard.

IF:
16 x 0.598 x 0.2365 = 2.263
16 x (0.598 x 0.5) x 0.2365 = 1.131
(16 x 0.5) x (0.598 x 0.5) x 0.2365 = 0.566

That's the DPS done for a Gren's Kar98 at 35 range against 1.0 RA model. Guess what's the correlations between the different colour values.
Little hint, each colour represents how the weapon behaves against cover.


Also, i feel like someone should jump here at this point to explain you guys how statistics work. It's like talking with people who believes the earth is flat or vaccines are bad.

Can we come back to Cons now?

Show Spoiler

^What i said before.

-Nerf STG Volks, 2x BAR rifles, 2x Bren IS.
-Shift some power from Penals to Conscripts. Make Molos come for free, make PTRS require AT nade research.
-Replacing Molotov slot and similar cost, after T3 is made they have an upgrade mutually exclusive with both PPSH or PTRS which replaces 3 Cons mosins for 3 Guards Mosins and reinforce cost is reduced by 1mp for each tier built.

Cons/Guards DPS for 0/20/35

3.614/1.984/1.060
4.734/2.569/1.423

It's a very flawed test you IMO, too many variables (4 man vs 6 man, different RA etc.) and too dependent on the RNG, few lucky snipes or incorrect focus fire is all it takes (cons focusing 1 PG model down drop the PG DPS by 25% for example)

A much better (and simple) test would be to measure time to kill between units. Since all we care about is the % drop in DPS, not infantry duels.

1. Measure how long it takes PG (or other squad with depends on volume of fire rather than accuracy) to kill Penals with and without cover
2. Measure how long it takes for Obers to kill Penals with and without cover
4. Do it multiple times, get the avereage
5. Difference in TTK tell us the % of DPS lost
6. If the % difference in TTK between "accuracy" and "ROF" differs, then we can agree that it isn't a simple % dmg reduction.

I might actually do it myself later, out of curiosity.

ANYWAY

Can we come back to Cons now?

musti is otherwise mustafa ? are u muslim ?
Anyway i agree with you.
Do u want 1vs1?

-Nerf STG Volks, 2x BAR rifles, 2x Bren IS.
-Shift some power from Penals to Conscripts. Make Molos come for free, make PTRS require AT nade research.
-Replacing Molotov slot and similar cost, after T3 is made they have an upgrade mutually exclusive with both PPSH or PTRS which replaces 3 Cons mosins for 3 Guards Mosins and reinforce cost is reduced by 1mp for each tier built.

Cons/Guards DPS for 0/20/35

3.614/1.984/1.060
4.734/2.569/1.423

I'll have to disagree with these ideas. Nerfing STGs/BARs could upset the infantry balance we have now, with JLI/Pathfinder/AssEng meta being pushed even further. also both IS and Brens were already nerfed before and I see no reason to nerf them even further.

PTRSs were introduced specifically to make T1 play less vulnerable to vehicles, and now you want to apply a 25 fuel tax on it, making it kinda pointless with T2 being 20 fuel and only couple MP more than AT package. Esentially you'll be delaying the T70 by 2-3 minutes if someone goes T1

A mid-game upgrade of 3.3 to 1.2 DPS is hardly anything to be excited about

Worst of all, none of these changes make you want to have Conscripts, best case scenario they become something you need, but not want (and we already have CEs filling that role), if anything, it will push Penal meta even further with Guards providing the AT.

Cons need to stand on their own as a mainline inf, they need to be able to do something of consequence by themselves, they need to deal damage, and not just stand around, get shot and throw shittier versions of flame nade

I don't think there is a way around a late game DPS upgrade, we can't touch their base stats for the fear of breaking the "sacred" early game Con-Gren balance and without additional DPS cons become pointless late game (esp. when you lose your vet 3 cons)

Otherwise we have to give up on this idea of Cons being the mainline, and instead redesign them as cheap garbage-troops like Ostruppen, which funnily enough DO GET a late game DPS upgrade.

...
Cons need to stand on their own as a mainline inf, they need to be able to do something of consequence by themselves, they need to deal damage, and not just stand around, get shot and throw shittier versions of flame nade
...

No they should not, conscript spam was working strategy and the game was stale.

Conscript should be a part of an army composition not the army itself or a stop gap to call in units.

Soviet have a wide variety of early, strong, call-in infantry and support weapons and there should be room for all these unit be a part of the army composition.

No they should not, conscript spam was working strategy and the game was stale.

Conscript should be a part of an army composition not the army itself or a stop gap to call in units.

Soviet have a wide variety of early, strong, call-in infantry and support weapons and there should be room for all these unit be a part of the army composition.

Counterpoint: Volksgren spam is stale and they should be part of an army composition.

OKW have a wide variety of early and late game infantry, both non docntrinal and call-in, as well as support weapons. There should be room for all these units to be a part of the army composition.

It is not acceptable that Volksgrens have incendiary grenades, fausts, can build cover, and get a weapon upgrade that lets them scale into the late game.

Volks do not need to stand on their own as mainline inf. Please nerf volks.


See how absurd it sounds when you replace conscripts with any other core infantry unit?

Just increase the molotov range and look conscripts turn from deep shit to meta boys.

Counterpoint: Volksgren spam is stale and they should be part of an army composition.

OKW have a wide variety of early and late game infantry, both non docntrinal and call-in, as well as support weapons. There should be room for all these units to be a part of the army composition.

It is not acceptable that Volksgrens have incendiary grenades, fausts, can build cover, and get a weapon upgrade that lets them scale into the late game.

Volks do not need to stand on their own as mainline inf. Please nerf volks.


See how absurd it sounds when you replace conscripts with any other core infantry unit?

Only problems with your theory are:
1) I never claimed VG are fine on the contrary I have repeatedly posted against the ST44 even before they where released.

2) Soviet have a much more versatile built order and tech tee and far more doctrinal call-in options than OKW and basically all other factions.

Counterpoint: Volksgren spam is stale and they should be part of an army composition.

OKW have a wide variety of early and late game infantry, both non docntrinal and call-in, as well as support weapons. There should be room for all these units to be a part of the army composition.

It is not acceptable that Volksgrens have incendiary grenades, fausts, can build cover, and get a weapon upgrade that lets them scale into the late game.

Volks do not need to stand on their own as mainline inf. Please nerf volks.


See how absurd it sounds when you replace conscripts with any other core infantry unit?

Next level retard post there:
Bolded quote is just what you added as an exaggeration. OKM does NOT have "a wide variety of early and late game infantry" (volks early, obers late. 1 on each) nor support weapons (raks on t0, again 1). T1 can unlock two options, but no doctrinal mortar/hmg/AT, as the soviet does. Pfusiliers are the only "mainline" inf call-in, as for JLI and Falls are more like a spec-ops (expensive AF and fragile). But soviets DO HAVE penals+cons+guards+shocks+ppsh guards+AI partisans+AT partisans+*cons upgrades (since this last ones gives a reprupose of the former named cons)

Facts are crystal clear, the units are present and the faction design is already there. The only one missing the point isnt vipper tho

Just increase the molotov range and look conscripts turn from deep shit to meta boys.

+1 i agree. Like the molo buff idea too

Next level retard post here:

Such a friendly fellow.

Bolded quote is just what you added as an exaggeration. OKM does NOT have "a wide variety of early and late game infantry" (volks early, obers late. 1 on each) nor support weapons (raks on t0, again 1). T1 can unlock two options, but no doctrinal mortar/hmg/AT, as the soviet does.

OKA get: A Field Gun, an AT gun, a HMG
SOV get: A Mortar, an AT gun, a HMG

Hey look, it's the same!

Pfusiliers are the only "mainline" inf call-in, as for JLI and Falls are more like a spec-ops (expensive AF and fragile). But soviets DO HAVE penals+cons+guards+shocks+ppsh guards+AI partisans+AT partisans+*cons upgrades (since this last ones gives a reprupose of the former named cons)

Facts are crystal clear, the units are present and the faction design is already there. The only one missing the point isnt vipper tho

What the hell. Seriously? JLI and Falls 'don't count' as infantry options, but partisans and PPSh guards do?

OKW: Volks, Sturmpios, Obers, Fusis, JLI, Falchirms.
SOV: Cons, Penals, Guards, Assault Guards, Shocks, Partisans, Combat Engineers.

Hey look, 6 vs 8, only all the OKW options are actually useful and they all scale into the late game.



The comparison is as valid as you could ever want. Both are T0 mainline infantry units with a small price difference. Both of them fill the same role. Both of them have almost like for like the same abilities. Both of them recieve doctrinal utility packages of varying degrees of usefulness. Both of them are the expected unit for one to begin the game with.

Only cons are bad late game and volks are fantastic. If you want to argue that's by faction design, fine! That faction design was from 2013 and it was garbage, and it needs changing now as much as it did then.

Conscript should be a part of an army composition not the army itself or a stop gap to call in units.

And for that, they need to deliver for the cost.

Also, while you were busy obsessing over semantics over last 2 years, multiple patches and even teching redesign were introduced SPECIFICALLY to REMOVE doctrinal call-ins dependency.

The "stop gap until call-ins" doesn't apply since 2017.

No they should not, conscript spam was working strategy and the game was stale.

Conscript should be a part of an army composition not the army itself or a stop gap to call in units.

Soviet have a wide variety of early, strong, call-in infantry and support weapons and there should be room for all these unit be a part of the army composition.

EVERY mainline inf is part of an army composition, with a variety of support weapons and vehicles. Grens are supposed to work with powerful support weapons and somehow don't have to be garbage because of that.
Even riflemen have AssEngs and Pathfinders to help out and fill the roles that RM can't (and they are supposed to be do-it-all inf). Slightly buffing Conscripts around T3-4 won't make Guards, Penals or Shocks obsolete, simply because of different roles they have. Right now the only room in the army there is for cons is in the garbage bin.

Also, it's not like im proposing to give cons Schreks nad FG-42s here, just a decent, lategame DPS buff.

I'll just repeat my idea
-A 30-25 fuel upgrade, available when T3/T4 is built
-All cons on the field and in T0 change name to Strelki (to indicate to both players that cons aren't to be pushed around anymore)
-New unit icon (same as above)
-Con Mosins are replaced with Guard mosins (~35% more DPS)
-Target Size reduced to 1.0
-Vet 1 RA adjusted if possible

Comparable to IS bolster, (25 % more DPS and HP) but comes later.
Cons are now "cheap" garbage troops(like now) but when you hit that upgrade they become cheap, decent troops, so you trade early game power for late game efficiency. If you think thats too efficient, change their reinforcement cost to 25 or something.

With upgrade, Cons DPS gets closer to Penal DPS, but still 30% lower.
Penals are still viable AI specialist unit, because of early game AI power, and stronger offensive vet
Guards are still needed for their AT rifles and long range firepower
Shocks are still needed for close-range firepower.

Pros:
- Early game balance is kept (sacred Gren-Con balance is still where it was)
- Doesn't ovelap with any units, PPSH or PTRS upgrades nor makes them obsolete
- Doesn't change the character of the unit (literally the same model and weapon)
- Is unique, and kinda fits the theme (and the campaing)
- Gives Sov a real option between an AI powerhouse mainline (Penals), or a more well rounded mainline which gets only gets decent mid/lategame (Cons->Strelki)
- T1/Penal builds are as viable as ever.
- If someone wants to use the cons for their utility, they can ignore the 30 fuel upgrade and get their vehicles that much faster

Cons:
-yes

Honestly, I'm not even sure if that's enough to make them viable, but at least it's a step in the right direction, because no amount of thrown mollies will help them out

Still forces you to completely ignore then in an okw matchup because stgs come a whole hell of a lot sooner than slightly better bolt action rifles. It's not just that cons don't scale late game, but that they are underwhelming all game. They don't really have a role in the Soviet roster.

OKA get: A Field Gun, an AT gun, a HMG
SOV get: A Mortar, an AT gun, a HMG

Hey look, it's the same!

What about the call-in part? Did you missed it "accidentaly" AGAIN? I dont think so...

What the hell. Seriously? JLI and Falls 'don't count' as infantry options, but partisans and PPSh guards do?

For the "Mr reading comprehension" is pretty ironic you cant do it for yourself, but dont worry i got you covered, again. As for spec-ops are infantry but not mainline inf, so does partisans (but not spec-ops, more like a disposable squad) so yeah. You have your options but not for mainline if, in case you forgot (volks for early and obers for late) so my point stands pretty much the same.

OKW: Volks, Sturmpios, Obers, Fusis, JLI, Falchirms.
SOV: Cons, Penals, Guards, Assault Guards, Shocks, Partisans, Combat Engineers.

Hey look, 6 vs 8, only all the OKW options are actually useful and they all scale into the late game.

"Hey look, i added NON COMBATANT UNITS to the formula!" And again you forgot you have 2xPartisans, AT conscripts (with totally new abilities), Ppsh cons(again repruposed and new abilities), Repair cons, a SNIPER (yeah it wreaks havok to OST and counts).
Sadly for OKM they cant choose other but volks for early or Pfusiliers given you picked its doctrine, but hey SU can pick pretty much any squad and get quite a lot of benefit, the only underwhelming case is non upgraded cons, so again you just shot your own feet. OKM call ins are mutually exclusive, what means you get only one and nothing more. But SU can get 2 or more call ins infantries with some cons upgrade packages, again, extra points for SU in versatility.

OKW: Volks AND Obers OR Fusis OR JLI OR Falchirms.
SOV: Cons++ AND Penals AND snipers OR Guards OR Assault Guards OR Shocks OR Partisans X2.
Im not even adding support weapon call ins. SOV already outnumbers a lot in this topic.

Again i dont understand why do you bother in talking back.

The comparison is as valid as you could ever want. Both are T0 mainline infantry units with a small price difference. Both of them fill the same role. Both of them have almost like for like the same abilities. Both of them recieve doctrinal utility packages of varying degrees of usefulness. Both of them are the expected unit for one to begin the game with.
...

Fun thing is you pick penals vs volks and its the other way around. GJ getting backfired again.
Also volks only doctrinal upgrade assault package, But cons that get AT package, PPsH package, Repair ability, Hit the dirt!. (1 upgrade vs 4)

Arnt penals 50mp more per squad and behind a 160mp tier building? Cause if I recall properly cons and volks share the same tiers and timing and only a 10mp cost difference,., seems far more logical to compare the equally priced units not the half tier away ones no? Asking for a friend.

Cons:
-yes

I would like to take a moment to appreciate that after all that you kept a sense of humor about this otherwise behemoth of a thread. Kudos to you sir.

If you're going to do something, make Conscripts access SVT-40 rifles with 100 MP (More guys, more rifles, more MP). Higher cost of upgrading will auto-nerf oohrah.

Take away SVT-40 rifles from Penals, give them Mosins, and give them the ability to upgrade to Flamethrowers.

It's ridiculous that essentially suicide cannon fodder are better armed than the main force on the Soviet infantry.

Take away SVT-40 rifles from Penals, give them Mosins, and give them the ability to upgrade to Flamethrowers.

ähm..no bro. This was awefull OP in the past.

What about the call-in part? Did you missed it "accidentaly" AGAIN? I dont think so...
For the "Mr reading comprehension" is pretty ironic you cant do it for yourself, but dont worry i got you covered, again. As for spec-ops are infantry but not mainline inf, so does partisans (but not spec-ops, more like a disposable squad) so yeah. You have your options but not for mainline if, in case you forgot (volks for early and obers for late) so my point stands pretty much the same.
"Hey look, i added NON COMBATANT UNITS to the formula!" And again you forgot you have 2xPartisans, AT conscripts (with totally new abilities), Ppsh cons(again repruposed and new abilities), Repair cons, a SNIPER (yeah it wreaks havok to OST and counts).
Sadly for OKM they cant choose other but volks for early or Pfusiliers given you picked its doctrine, but hey SU can pick pretty much any squad and get quite a lot of benefit, the only underwhelming case is non upgraded cons, so again you just shot your own feet. OKM call ins are mutually exclusive, what means you get only one and nothing more. But SU can get 2 or more call ins infantries with some cons upgrade packages, again, extra points for SU in versatility.

OKW: Volks AND Obers OR Fusis OR JLI OR Falchirms.
SOV: Cons++ AND Penals AND snipers OR Guards OR Assault Guards OR Shocks OR Partisans X2.
Im not even adding support weapon call ins. SOV already outnumbers a lot in this topic.

Again i dont understand why do you bother in talking back.


Fun thing is you pick penals vs volks and its the other way around. GJ getting backfired again.
Also volks only doctrinal upgrade assault package, But cons that get AT package, PPsH package, Repair ability, Hit the dirt!. (1 upgrade vs 4)

1. Really sad that you try to portay okw as being heavely doctrine dependent. There is more then volks or fussies. You purposely leave out sturms and the kubel, a feul free vehicle. That you only spam volks is on you.

2. And your point is? All off them are good enough.

3. Again you forget sturms for okw, but then you do count the su sniper. Why are you even posting?
Sov have so much callin inf and teams because all off their non doc inf and wpn teams except penals are not as effective as other factions counterparts are. Despite being a little more durable.

4. Cons have a lot off utility indeed but half is in doctrines and thus exclude eachother. Their scaling also is doctrinal depended. Volks dont need any doctrine for any off that and do more then cons. With cons you pay for what you cant get, about a third off that utility is not available at the same time. And they also pay more for basic utility.

For 10 mp more volks wreck cons and its fine. For 50 mp more plus tech structure and you are suprised penals beat volks?

Why don't make PPSH upgrade nondoctrinal? It's ridiculous that weapon that was in usage from start at Barbarossa and was iconic for Red Army available only in doctrines. It's make conscripts normal. No need nerf volks or other units.