OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

221 needs a truck called in so that should be factored into cost as well.

And a truck cost 100 mp and 15 fuel.

221 is turreted reeeeeeeee.

In all seriousness that seems to help with flanking and hunting down infantry though, and it has much better utility later, bringing in more resources and all that. Also, 1v1 vehicle vs vehicle dps battle tests aren't a great indicator of how good a vehicle is either, because it leaves out all other potential factors. By that metric the stug is a god among medium tanks lol (if medium tank is defined as tanks that die in 4 hits/have 640hp or whatever).

221 is turreted reeeeeeeee.

In all seriousness that seems to help with flanking and hunting down infantry though, and it has much better utility later, bringing in more resources and all that. Also, 1v1 vehicle vs vehicle dps battle tests aren't a great indicator of how good a vehicle is either, because it leaves out all other potential factors. By that metric the stug is a god among medium tanks lol (if medium tank is defined as tanks that die in 4 hits/have 640hp or whatever).

What's the point of turret if 221 can not out run M3? Stug will lose to T34 because T34 could out run Stug.

221 is not 223, it can not secure resource or detect vehicles, it can only dispatch medic. And the problem here is OKW's starting unit could dispatch medic, too.

If you want to count other potential factors. What could be more deadly to retreating squad? A M3 with a squad of flame thrower CE or a 221? And a M3 with a squad of PTRS penal or Guard could be deadly to Ost's Halftrack, too.

A question here: If you are a SOV player and relic plan to increase M3's price by 15 fuel and remove its ability to transport infantry in exchange of the ability of dispatching medic, will you be OK with that?

What's the point of turret if 221 can not out run M3? Stug will lose to T34 because T34 could out run Stug.

a stug is very vulnerable to being circlestrafed by T-34s even when retreating... mind you the M3 has trouble chasing targets as chasing means only the crew inside is firing unless the M3 is directly pointing at the target... which may not always be the case

221 is not 223, it can not secure resource or detect vehicles, it can only dispatch medic. And the problem here is OKW's starting unit could dispatch medic, too.

its recon... look at its view range... it also gets smoke by vet 1 and its turret is great for chasing down lone and retreating squads squads... its also the direct counter to the soviet sniper coming at a time when sov simply has no AT counters available...

also thats another point... sov has no AT counters at this point while OKW can get the rakaten... the closest equivalent to the sov situation would be to remove the rakaten from T0 and expect OKW to even hold a point against the M3...

later in the game that overall fuel cost is useful anyways because the car becomes an OKW cache with armor....

If you want to count other potential factors. What could be more deadly to retreating squad? A M3 with a squad of flame thrower CE or a 221? And a M3 with a squad of PTRS penal or Guard could be deadly to Ost's Halftrack, too.

if the terrain results in a retreating squad moving through shifting terrain then its actually the 221... the flamethrower is not the best vs retreating units and the DPM of the M3 is entirely dependent on terrain...

A question here: If you are a SOV player and relic plan to increase M3's price by 15 fuel and remove its ability to transport infantry in exchange of the ability of dispatching medic, will you be OK with that?

you mean 5 fuel... make the M3 20 fuel... remove the garrison but give it a turret... a smoke at vet 1 access to vet 5 for all of my units.. while removing caches then give the m3 an optional upgrade to cache with more armor and youve got yourself a deal...

also the M3 is 15 fuel i repeat 15 fuel... not 5... 15... 15 15 15 15...

2 choice buff it's armor and rate of fire or reduce the price

2 choice buff it's armor and rate of fire or reduce the price

Buff armor will make it too good against infantry, especially against USF, I think increasing its mg's penetration will be a better choice.

that would leave sov and UKF in the dust when trying to counter the 221... USA can get early zooks at the least...

that would leave sov and UKF in the dust when trying to counter the 221... USA can get early zooks at the least...

Not really, as Soviets have PTRS and the UKF can get the AEC out pretty quickly. This would be no different from OKW's early game against an M3.

getting a PTRS on a penal is equivalent to shooting SOV lategame in the foot... and sov cannot delay till guards well enough... sov T2 also gets clobbered even harder by the 221...

What's the point of turret if 221 can not out run M3? Stug will lose to T34 because T34 could out run Stug.

221 is not 223, it can not secure resource or detect vehicles, it can only dispatch medic. And the problem here is OKW's starting unit could dispatch medic, too.

If you want to count other potential factors. What could be more deadly to retreating squad? A M3 with a squad of flame thrower CE or a 221? And a M3 with a squad of PTRS penal or Guard could be deadly to Ost's Halftrack, too.

A question here: If you are a SOV player and relic plan to increase M3's price by 15 fuel and remove its ability to transport infantry in exchange of the ability of dispatching medic, will you be OK with that?

Turret is still a turret. Useful for if you're flanking a position (say, an mg or infantry in cover) and then don't have to waste time turning. There's more things the 221 can fight than the m3.

The point is the 221 has the potential to be a 223 and have all the utility associated. It's not a 223, but it can be made into a 223 and thus that potential should be taken into account.

A loaded m3 is better against retreating squads for sure, but at the same time that also means that you have a squad in there. The fact that it can do that is an advantage though. The 221 is still quite good against retreating infantry, especially since it seems a bit more manueverable and has a turret but it does obviously lack the firepower that you could have with the m3.

If you want to expand that comparison to making the m3 into the exact same as the 221 (in addition to medical supplies having a turret, the mg42 on top, the ability to upgrade to be a cahce and have smokes) then hell yeah, let me have that. Sure, it'd be a tradeoff, but I freakin love the 221.

Not really, as Soviets have PTRS and the UKF can get the AEC out pretty quickly. This would be no different from OKW's early game against an M3.

also mind you okw can get the rakaten and opt for t1 instead of T2...

sov only has a shoot my lategame in the foot option PTRS penal or suffer until guards come out...

t2 on the other hand just dies

UKF also just dies...

soo yeah no the 221 is actually good... if anything needs changing its the vet...

getting a PTRS on a penal is equivalent to shooting SOV lategame in the foot... and sov cannot delay till guards well enough... sov T2 also gets clobbered even harder by the 221...

Actually fighting the 221 is probably one of the only things the maxim does well due to its paper armour.

I just want to refocus discussion.

What do people feel the issue with the 221/223 is (if any):

Is the 221 coming too late?

Is the 221 too expensive?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to small arms?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to non-small arms (weapons with pen greater than 1, in this case)?

Is the 221 not killing infantry well enough?

Is the 221 not killing snipers well enough?

Is the 221 not killing vehicles well enough?

Is the 221 not bringing enough utility?

The bulk of the discussion so far is about how well the 221 does against the m3. If the issue is that it doesnt do well enough against vehicles, then I would think along the lines of a pen buff, as this doesnt risk breaking its performance against infantry targets, and still keeps it vulnerable to small arms (which we probably do want, considering its timing window, pending any arguments otherwise).

I just want to refocus discussion.

What do people feel the issue with the 221/223 is (if any):

Is the 221 coming too late?

Is the 221 too expensive?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to small arms?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to non-small arms (weapons with pen greater than 1, in this case)?

Is the 221 not killing infantry well enough?

Is the 221 not killing snipers well enough?

Is the 221 not killing vehicles well enough?

Is the 221 not bringing enough utility?

The bulk of the discussion so far is about how well the 221 does against the m3. If the issue is that it doesnt do well enough against vehicles, then I would think along the lines of a pen buff, as this doesnt risk breaking its performance against infantry targets, and still keeps it vulnerable to small arms (which we probably do want, considering its timing window, pending any arguments otherwise).

For when it arrives, it just doesn't have the impact of some of the other things of similar time. The M20 now vets hella fast and is much more potent, the UC and M3 while they arrive earlier still can accomplish much more with their time slots. The UC vickers upgrade and m3 clown car have their windows of immense power, and clown car can even wipe things if you overextend. 221 isn't too great at either of those.

I feel that the 221 is too squishy for a 35 fuel requirement. Alternatives are much less expensive and have early game utility in transportation AND feel more durable. The cost of the 223 imo is fine for what it brings so knocking 5 off the 221 and putting it on the 223 imo is the best choice

i honestly dont think the 221 should be raping M3s regularly... a fuel reduction and a vet buff would be better

I just want to refocus discussion.

What do people feel the issue with the 221/223 is (if any):

Is the 221 coming too late?

Is the 221 too expensive?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to small arms?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to non-small arms (weapons with pen greater than 1, in this case)?

Is the 221 not killing infantry well enough?

Is the 221 not killing snipers well enough?

Is the 221 not killing vehicles well enough?

Is the 221 not bringing enough utility?

The bulk of the discussion so far is about how well the 221 does against the m3. If the issue is that it doesnt do well enough against vehicles, then I would think along the lines of a pen buff, as this doesnt risk breaking its performance against infantry targets, and still keeps it vulnerable to small arms (which we probably do want, considering its timing window, pending any arguments otherwise).

As a armored car:
The unit tech cost and cost is simply too high.

Given the starting fuel of OKW the 221 is very expensive and comes too late while it does not counter other cars effectively.

The unit has 1 armor over kubel while costing more and coming later.

As a resources vehicle it is more expensive Opel with a 30 fuel cost and 4 pop.

The unit simply need a redesign.

Designed as a counter to armored car/snipers, durable with medium lethality vs infantry.

Replace the Opel mechanics with the a timed version of the siphon mechanics (that used to be available to kubel).

Shared veterancy should be removed, as from many other units. It should only be available to support units that vet very slowly like the 251

I've been playing with the 221 a lot in team games. It is a bit underwelming.
IMO it needs a few minor adjustments to be more viable:

• Lower veterancy requirements (even with shared veterancy it's hard to get it past vet 1-2 in team games before AEC/Stuart/PTRS blob/ATGs arrive and its risk vs performance becomes too low to use effectively). Compared to units like the M20 it takes ages to vet. Seeing as much of its combat power comes from vet, this would help it a lot.

• With its current timing it should be able to deal with the UC, M3 and Dodge a bit better. Penetration should be buffed.

• I think reducing both armor AND hp for the 221 was too much. With the current armor it should be fine with its regular 320HP so it doesn't die so fast. Either that or reduce the price to 10-15 fuel (in case of the latter, compensate price of 223 upgrade so total remains 30FU).

• Alternatively the current cost and armor/hp can stay the same, but remove the SWS truck requirement. It's vulnerable enough that two squads can push it away so there's no more need for it to have to arrive so late. Right now it comes onto the field at the moment USF can have the LT bazooka, the UKF are a minute away from an AEC and the Soviets can have PTRS or any can have an ATG out and the 221's combat power just isn't good enough to be viable at this time.

You are comparing the fuel only with the combat effectiveness against eachother. Whilst to cost for a unit comes from much more aspects.

- The combat effectiveness against all other units it might face.

- Other utitlities (smoke, med crates, riegels, 223 potential with its abilities)


Besides this i think the 221 performs fine.

I just want to refocus discussion.

What do people feel the issue with the 221/223 is (if any):

Is the 221 coming too late?

Is the 221 too expensive?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to small arms?

Is the 221 too vulnerable to non-small arms (weapons with pen greater than 1, in this case)?

Is the 221 not killing infantry well enough?

Is the 221 not killing snipers well enough?

Is the 221 not killing vehicles well enough?

Is the 221 not bringing enough utility?

The bulk of the discussion so far is about how well the 221 does against the m3. If the issue is that it doesnt do well enough against vehicles, then I would think along the lines of a pen buff, as this doesnt risk breaking its performance against infantry targets, and still keeps it vulnerable to small arms (which we probably do want, considering its timing window, pending any arguments otherwise).

Imo 221 issue is with 221 existence all together.

Only purpose of 221 is to upgrade to 223.
Its firepower is decent and its going to 1 burst kill sniper(2 on the move).

Given there is puppchen in T0, it shouldn't have any meaningful performance against lights.

And its cost both, makes little sense for 221 itself and at the same time can not be lowered, because then 221 swarm would easily overrun USF or brits.

221 should not exist, it should just be 223 only, I can't see a single logical reason why 221 would exist other then give OKW something to build in early game that isn't volks.