OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

again it needs 50 fuel(20 cost 15 truck call in and starting with 15 fu less) gained before one can call it in if we are talking about timing for counters , all the counter come sooner
ex:ukf can get to tier 1 at the same time as the tech truck comes than okw has to wait other 20 fu for it, u can get at gun or RE for counters and if u want even the aec with a delay

How dense are you?

5 starting fuel.
You need 15 for truck.
Then you need 20 for 221.
That's 30 fuel you need to get, 35 total - everything else is you arguing god knows what without making any sense.

Its 100% irrelevant what other factions starting fuel is BECAUSE SOME OTHER FACTIONS HAVE TO BUILD A TIER AT START.

Its 30 fuel to get, not 50, regardless of your insane arguments, unless you specifically talk about 223 and not 221.

The point hasnt come up in a while, but I still feel the need to say that people using the 223s potential role as a resource gain unit in order to compare the unit to the opel blitz are missing the biggest relevant point.

As someone who tried to make opel blitzes work in 1v1s, I found the biggest issue is their durability. As soon as my opponent realized I had an opel blitz, it would die. An m20 driving by would instantly destroy it. A combat engineer squad would destroy the opel blitz before it could finish packing up and get away. It is nearly impossible to keep them alive long enough to make the investment worth it (unless you had your opponent pushed so far off of the map that you were going to win anyway - at which point you would prefer more manpower to more fuel or munitions). The opel blitz is a resource gain unit that dies before it can actually get you any resources; its not actually functional in this role.

The 223 on the other hand, between its armor, hp, smoke at vet 1 (which you should have easily achieved if you actually used the unit), and vehicle detection, is fairly easy to keep alive on most maps. With proper attention, it can usually even survive medium tank dives. The fact that the 223 actually stays alive long enough to give you resources makes a world of difference. Its A LOT better at getting you resources than an opel blitz is.

If you want to rework Soviets (good luck with that), make another thread about it.

221 is simple the Obers of the vehicles. It's not meant to stay vanilla and the fuel upgrade is just there as a stopgap.

I wouldn't buff the performance, but would play by moving around the cost to build and the cost to upgrade. Take 5f from it and move it to the upgrade.
If the unit is not getting vet reasonable, improve the range/speed of the shared vet. Want to see the performance when people get access to riegels.

I don't see the Obers/221 analogy. LMG obers are decent fighting unit. 223 is far less cost efficient than the 222 since it is missing a 20 mm gun while being more expensive.

Thus as a fighting unit the 223 is also overpriced.

It has additional utility but that does not change that fact that as fighting unit it is UP.

In addition it is the only(?) vehicle that its upgrade needs fuel and manpower instead of munition.

I'd rather have the 222 at the exact same timing as the Wehr 222

Good at def, bad on assault. But you can comnbine them so easy. Put in a Sniper and you can overrun a hole position. Later a SU85 and even Panther has no chance. (that is good, but simply to easy to do, that is the problem) If there is no Ele etc. you will win because of lack of counters. If Penals would lose their AI ability, they would be fine. And that is no l2p, it is the problem of commander and fraction design.

But now you only need the time and the map-knowledge and the luck that you don't lose all inf by Panzerwerfer. If StuG or Panther can't hunt, they are they most useless units ingame. And if the enemys AT inf also can defend a position, then there is a problem.

So, nerf the Penals, if you don't change the line-up.

A.
- Give Penals same weapon-profile as Volks. Upgrade for better AI weapon or PTRS.

B.
- No Sniper with Penals.

I have stated I agree with the direction of A. Before but there is no reason that 2 squads consisting of 660mp shouldn't be impactful. Soviet forces can't have anything but a PTRS as long as the squad has 6 models. It can't. Too durable. And the PTRS is very vulnerable to pushing, so it needs to have a snare (cons have a snare, guards have a snare and penals have a smare) ID like to see less AI retained (preferably a mutually exclusive AI and AT upgrades) but the design outside that element is sound

I don't see the Obers/221 analogy. LMG obers are decent fighting unit. 223 is far less cost efficient than the 222 since it is missing a 20 mm gun while being more expensive.

Thus as a fighting unit the 223 is also overpriced.

It has additional utility but that does not change that fact that as fighting unit it is UP.

In addition it is the only(?) vehicle that its upgrade needs fuel and manpower instead of munition.

Non LMG Obers are not a cost effective unit, specially for timing. The point of the unit is to upgrade it as soon as possible and making them survive till they hit vet 2.
You don't use Obers without LMG. You don't make the 221, just for the sake of playing with it without upgrading it.

221 is a sniper counter and mobile non bleeding unit early game. A Kubel lite.

The whole point of the unit is not been another shock fighting unit rather than an utility one. Remember how you keep bringing the point of how "tracking" is so good because it reveals units in the minimap? Well, thats also one of the roles of 223.
No one ask here for the IR HT to get improved fighting capabilities.

If the unit doesn't pay for itself through it's utility, don't just improve it's fighting capabilities. I'll rather see any of the following things before changing it's firepower:

-5f and/or some mp moved from 221 to 223.
-Making medkits cheaper or even free with a long 2/3 min cd.
-Playing with the values of vet gain so people can use the Riegel mine.

Playing with the values of vet gain so people can use the Riegel mine.

Vet is shared, so keeping it in the vincinity of combat will eventually get it to vet5 without ever exposing it, it does vet fastest out of all OKW units thanks to that shared vet.

Non LMG Obers are not a cost effective unit, specially for timing. The point of the unit is to upgrade it as soon as possible and making them survive till they hit vet 2.
You don't use Obers without LMG. You don't make the 221, just for the sake of playing with it without upgrading it.

221 is a sniper counter and mobile non bleeding unit early game. A Kubel lite.

The whole point of the unit is not been another shock fighting unit rather than an utility one. Remember how you keep bringing the point of how "tracking" is so good because it reveals units in the minimap? Well, thats also one of the roles of 223.
No one ask here for the IR HT to get improved fighting capabilities.

If the unit doesn't pay for itself through it's utility, don't just improve it's fighting capabilities. I'll rather see any of the following things before changing it's firepower:

-5f and/or some mp moved from 221 to 223.
-Making medkits cheaper or even free with a long 2/3 min cd.
-Playing with the values of vet gain so people can use the Riegel mine.

I would rather have the 221 redesigned as counter to cars and snipers with something like less 75% DPS but more penetration and HP to 320.

Price should probably be around 180-200 with 5-10 fuel cost since one should be able to trade it for killing a sniper, with a pop down to 3-2.

As for the 223 in the current price (320/30!!!) is far less cost efficient that 222 and far less cost efficient than the opel. It should simply be a separate vehicle or weaker and cheaper to upgrade.
Or the opel mechanism could be replaced with a timed version of the "siphon" mechanism allowing more counter play.

The 221 could easily fill the role of a counter to cars and then 222 could become more expensive and tougher serving a soft counter to light tanks.

(Remember when you argued that making the 221 available to ostheer would be problematic because all upgrade cost mu and not fuel/manpower? Seem that this rule no longer applies).

On Ober analogy
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I would rather have the 221 redesigned as counter to cars and snipers with something like less 75% DPS but more penetration and HP to 320.

Price should probably be around 180-200 with 5-10 fuel cost since one should be able to trade it for killing a sniper.

As for the 223 in the current price is far less cost efficient that 222 and far less cost efficient than the opel. It should simply be a separate vehicle or weaker and cheaper to upgrade.
Or the opel mechanism could be replaced with a timed version of the "siphon" mechanism allowing more counter play.

The 221 could easily fill the role of a counter to cars and then 222 could become more expensive and tougher serving a soft counter to light tanks.

(Remember when you argued that making the 221 available to ostheer would be problematic because all upgrade cost mu and not fuel/manpower? Seem that this rule no longer applies).

actually at 10 fuel its now cheaper than the M3A1... and id still take 20 fuel for an M3A1 hunting light vehicle tbh...

@Katitof I'm talking about further increasing it, if the unit doesn't manage to get to vet 5.

...

That's what YOU want, not what the unit is doing now.

It's a Kubel with turret and better manoeuvrability.
It's an Opel which can actually survive engagement through combination of intel, armor, hp, smoke.
It's an intel unit which gets "armored vehicle detection" for free.
It has shared xp gain, so whenever combat gets dangerous it can stay on 2nd line.

Don't compare the unit individually, when it's multipurpose unit. It's obvious it's not gonna perform up to par with other units, when it's fulfilling several roles at the same time.

If you want to discuss a 222 and re-implementation of 221 for OH, open a new thread. 221 is not problematic, it's just served no purpose at the time it was live. It seems you learn the way of Katitof in moving the point of discussion and putting other words in people quotes.

Don't bother quoting please cause i've already presented my opinion and don't want to drag down in a long discussion. Removing myself from this thread.

@Katitof I'm talking about further increasing it, if the unit doesn't manage to get to vet 5.

Ah, got it, makes sense.
In fact, I wouldn't mind most early game lights to have that kind of scaling, considering they rarely live past 10 min without being used in the way that completely prevents them from accumulating the vet in the first place due to overprotective micro.

Non LMG Obers are not a cost effective unit, specially for timing. The point of the unit is to upgrade it as soon as possible and making them survive till they hit vet 2.
You don't use Obers without LMG. You don't make the 221, just for the sake of playing with it without upgrading it.

221 is a sniper counter and mobile non bleeding unit early game. A Kubel lite.

The whole point of the unit is not been another shock fighting unit rather than an utility one. Remember how you keep bringing the point of how "tracking" is so good because it reveals units in the minimap? Well, thats also one of the roles of 223.
No one ask here for the IR HT to get improved fighting capabilities.

If the unit doesn't pay for itself through it's utility, don't just improve it's fighting capabilities. I'll rather see any of the following things before changing it's firepower:

-5f and/or some mp moved from 221 to 223.
-Making medkits cheaper or even free with a long 2/3 min cd.
-Playing with the values of vet gain so people can use the Riegel mine.

I prefer increasing 221's MG's penetration than decreasing its price, and keep its armor unchanged so it will not be a big threat to infantry.

OKW lacks methods to counter early vehicles and build a 221 will delay panzerfaust. Maybe we should consider making 221 as one of methods countering early vehicles?

Vet is shared, so keeping it in the vincinity of combat will eventually get it to vet5 without ever exposing it, it does vet fastest out of all OKW units thanks to that shared vet.

I'm theory. If you have it as a 223 you likely want it away from fighting because it dies quickly and yuu want those resources sank into getting you resources, not camping out to try and eventually lay mines. If it's the 221 all you want from it is to wait until it upgrades and then see above.

The major also has shared vet but it seems that despite that units set up a mile behind the front don't collect alot of vet...

OKW lacks methods to counter early vehicles and build a 221 will delay panzerfaust. Maybe we should consider making 221 as one of methods countering early vehicles?

OKW has cheap T0 invisible anti tank gun.
It doesn't get anymore hard-countery in early game then that.

How dense are you?

5 starting fuel.
You need 15 for truck.
Then you need 20 for 221.
That's 30 fuel you need to get, 35 total - everything else is you arguing god knows what without making any sense.

Its 100% irrelevant what other factions starting fuel is BECAUSE SOME OTHER FACTIONS HAVE TO BUILD A TIER AT START.

Its 30 fuel to get, not 50, regardless of your insane arguments, unless you specifically talk about 223 and not 221.

ok the argument is that it comes sooner than it's counter (at guns at nades and at weapons) but if u count the starting fuel it does not come before them cause other faction can reach them sooner thanks to the 15 fuel leads how is that difficult to understand