Civil discussion about OKW

Locking until everyone calms down, not gonna sit here and invis everyones posts for 4 hours or ban people.

Unlocked.

Not jack of all trades but get a FREE snare, STG's that can be upgraded anywhere,free fire nades to clear garrisons and team weapons and good vet? They can't fight proper armor thats it. But they don't fall off compared to other mainline that also have to RESEARCH RACKS AND SIDETECH FOR THESE GOODIES. OR PAY FUEL FOR 1 EXTRA MEMBER

USF has free snare. volks vet is worse than most other mainlines. OKW starts with less fuel which mitigates weapon racks essentially. Don't use cons.

>dont use ur versatile mainline infantry into OKW
>OKW stg's still beat conscript PPSHs and STG's are stock
>u need to close distance to do anything with a PPSH

hahahah

Use penals. They punch harder than volks and scale pretty well with no upgrades.

- the pz iv is the best non-premiun med in the game

It also has the price tag of the best medium tank in the game.

Meanwhile Allied has to pay for anything close to it by locking themselves to commanders.

Good thing said mediums come in no brainer choice docs that are picked in 90% of all matches.

- The KT is stock

KT is barely worth the price at the current moment you are better off getting a panther/jp4 if you want AT damage

Still stock and better than IS-2 without added CP need or the fact that u have to lock urself to a commander.

IS2 was used more in GCS2 than the KT. We can assume IS2 > KT.

- Good early and late game units, preservation is a meme because of obers

If obers couldn't fight vetted infantry then they would be useless considering how late they come out. I dont get why obers make preservation a meme.

Why can't soviets/USF/UKF fight with non-vetted stock units? U need vet or u bust making preservation from OKW side a meme. Even guards with DP's suck without vet compared to Obers with LMG upgrade while not being stock.

Why doesn't OKWs mainline infantry go toe-to-toe with allied 2x upgrades lategame? Why doesn't every faction have 6 men like soviets? Why can't obers engage armor like guards?

Every faction does something different. If you're struggling with a certain faction or strategy, try using it and see how your opponet reacts and if they can beat it.

Volks are a core problem and have suggest a reduction in the amount of damage output they dish-out. I mean just removing an STG from the package might be good or another way could simply be to reduce the k98 damage.

Rekketen question I think its ROF is clearly an issue as well as its detection range. I think if we increase its detect-ability as well as maybe its ROF (either of but not both) would help deter armor but also not over punish b/c light vehicles cant back out quick enough before the second shot fires. Maybe even grant it heavy cover when its set up to help it late game.

Sturmpios I believe the unit is fine outside of their early ability to grab a building and ez pz lock it down. maybe a 20-40 muni STG upgrade would work to help scaling.

P4 is fine as the price tag is high, I think other units/tech need their pacing changes (cough cough Sherman 75)

Counter-less recon is defo a problem and I would like some sort of way to counter.

Obers I believe are fine.

I believe some form of these changes / edits would help even it out but ofc not all of this has to come forward and OFC stuff is always up in the air but I agree OKW is rather easy to play compared to OST and allies. Thats not to say in 1v1 they aren't hard but 2v2+ they surely aren't as punishing as other factions.

Only real weakness is that they cant counter snipers, so you can bleed them out with good sniper play.

If you are playing USF quit the game and go fuck yourself, you are going to lose.

Also Strum pios are an absolute bitch to play against if you are playing on a map the requires you to rush a building immediately.(same with brit tommies). I think this is a map issue though and can be solved by removing any buildings next to fuel points.

Not jack of all trades but get a FREE snare, STG's that can be upgraded anywhere,free fire nades to clear garrisons and team weapons and good vet? They can't fight proper armor thats it. But they don't fall off compared to other mainline that also have to RESEARCH RACKS AND SIDETECH FOR THESE GOODIES. OR PAY FUEL FOR 1 EXTRA MEMBER

Still not a jack of all trades unit. PFaus isn't killing anything over a pixel of HP thats a LV or stronger. Also the side tech is warranted considering how much stronger BAR and BREN upgrades are late game when compared to STGs. Volks vet is worse than Rifles, Infantry Sections, and Penals. Cons also have good vet but their mosins are terrible. Volks get outscaled by Rifles, Infantry Sections and Penals but are better early.

>dont use ur versatile mainline infantry into OKW
>OKW stg's still beat conscript PPSHs and STG's are stock
>u need to close distance to do anything with a PPSH
hahahah

PPSH conscripts lose to any infantry past the close range mark but beat almost anything axis has at close range. Also at vet 3 they are pretty durable and quite strong.

Yeah don't spam cons into OKW. Think about it as how USF sucks because they get outspammed by OKW by using worse early game infantry and times that by two with Cons and Cons don't outscale like Rifles do. Cons with support weapons or t1 penals and clown car are the way to go against OKW. You are basically playing shitty USF into USF's worst matchup and with 2 other opening that are 10x better against OKW their isn't a point in con spam.


Meanwhile Allied has to pay for anything close to it by locking themselves to commanders.

Personally, I would love to have an HE sherman on OKW or OST but thats not now factions work. Each faction is different and the price tag of the p4 justifies its performance.

Still stock and better than IS-2 without added CP need or the fact that u have to lock urself to a commander.
IS-2 is better than the KT. ISU-52 is also way better and comes in meta doctrines if you really desire a heavy tank. Also, note that KT gets stomped by all 3 TDs on the allies side.


Why can't soviets/USF/UKF fight with non-vetted stock units? U need vet or u bust making preservation from OKW side a meme. Even guards with DP's suck without vet compared to Obers with LMG upgrade while not being stock.

Because none of these factions have an infantry unit in Tier 4, Volks definitely still need unit preservation since unvetted volks will getting eaten alive by vetted allied infantry. Obers are also expensive to get and maintain and while they are very powerful they have an obvious weakness (Nothing against vehicles). Which you should have at that point.


Its (almost) universally agrees that Spec Ops flares should be nerfed or changed in some way.

My thoughts about OKW:
1.Nerf volks with STGs.
2.Delay SP arrival a little bit (maybe locked until 1st truck arrive so no 2 SP fast rush or replace the start units with volks)
3.Swap ober with walking stukas. ober in T3 may arrive earlier and help the mid game also increase OKW late game if those vetted obers are preserved. Walking Stukas in T4 can make it more acessible when u need it. If u go T2 and T4, u don't have to build a T3 for it. And in fact this thing in T3 would never help it arrive early because it's too risky to build a Walking Stuka without other fighting vechicles.
4.buff the KT AI ability
I think it would make Okw perform more steadily throughout the game. Not super strong beginning and a awkward late game.

@shadowlinkx37 they start with less fuel but more manpower allowing for a terribly aggressive start. Coupled with their ability to cheaply quick cap with the Kuble and very strong sturms it very much allows them to make up that fuel. As a Soviet if you build a base building to get some not shit tier units out and build a con to try and get map control you will be out numbered and outgunned despite starting with more fuel. While you are using your CE to build your base and waiting for something to build the OKW is already headed to your fuel and you can be sure as shit CE aren't going to defend it for you.

Their aggression afforded by the extra manpower is paramount.

Why is people asking for Volks to be nerfed again? They were nerfed badly last year no?
Seriously as Soviet you just need to get some Penals and a clown car and you pretty much beat OKW early game, if you don't want to spam Penals then get a sniper or just go with the old-reliable Maxim spam.
As UKF, just play defensively with Sections behind cover, Sturmpios will get murdered as they charge in and Volks will get murdered at range. If you see the Kubel then get your UC and you're good.
As USF, blob Rifles and put them in cover and you should be able to at least push Volks back to have some breathing room.

Why is people asking for Volks to be nerfed again? They were nerfed badly last year no?
Seriously as Soviet you just need to get some Penals and a clown car and you pretty much beat OKW early game, if you don't want to spam Penals then get a sniper or just go with the old-reliable Maxim spam.
As UKF, just play defensively with Sections behind cover, Sturmpios will get murdered as they charge in and Volks will get murdered at range. If you see the Kubel then get your UC and you're good.
As USF, blob Rifles and put them in cover and you should be able to at least push Volks back to have some breathing room.

So your solution to volks is to ignore your SLIGHTLY cheaper troops because they are going to get shit canned (despite being nearly the same price) and use the 50mp more troops exclusively, or spam the more expensive MG (the one with the deathloop that suffers greatly from enemy flame nades that can be thrown well before Supression) for the soviet
As ukf you need to be completely defensive with your 30mp more troops and make sure you don't get caught out of position

As usf you need to blob your 30mp more expensive TROOPS AND keep them in cover so you can "at least push volks back to have some breathing room"

Sure sounds like volks are operating according to cost. Completely dummy things around their cost and force defensive play out of units that should be outclassing them.

I'm ko mathematician here but shouldn't the outmanouvering and sticking to cover to get the upper hand not be on the CHEAPER unit, not the more expensive one?

@shadowlinkx37 they start with less fuel but more manpower allowing for a terribly aggressive start. Coupled with their ability to cheaply quick cap with the Kuble and very strong sturms it very much allows them to make up that fuel. As a Soviet if you build a base building to get some not shit tier units out and build a con to try and get map control you will be out numbered and outgunned despite starting with more fuel. While you are using your CE to build your base and waiting for something to build the OKW is already headed to your fuel and you can be sure as shit CE aren't going to defend it for you.

Their aggression afforded by the extra manpower is paramount.

Starting resources:

USF: 400MP + 15F(20F in mod) + 200 from REs = 600MP + 15F(20F)
UKF: 340MP + 20F + 280MP = 620MP + 20F
Soviet: 390MP + 20F + 170MP = 560MP + 20F
OST: 420MP + 20F + 200MP = 620MP + 20F
OKW: 340MP + 5F + 300MP = 640MP + 5F

Yeah I don't think "extra manpower" is that massive here since you gain 50MP, which is the largest gap here in about 13 seconds.... I'd gladly trade 40ish MP for volks to scale lategame. Not to mention OKWs teching costs more in terms of MP. 300 per structure down comparing with other factions.

That also says nothing about the fact that the extra manpower is in the sturms, which fall off pretty hard once weapon upgrades come online.

Rekketen question I think its ROF is clearly an issue as well as its detection range. I think if we increase its detect-ability as well as maybe its ROF (either of but not both) would help deter armor but also not over punish b/c light vehicles cant back out quick enough before the second shot fires.

Its ROF is already the worst of all ATG along with the ZiS-3.

I would much rather have normal 60 range, slightly better aim time and decent crew protection. Then the stealth can be stationary only.

Sturmpios I believe the unit is fine outside of their early ability to grab a building and ez pz lock it down. maybe a 20-40 muni STG upgrade would work to help scaling.

Early aggression is also the only merit of Sturmpioneers, as they get outscaled very quickly by vetted/upgraded/concentrated infantry and after that point they become just really expensive engineers.

Counter-less recon is defo a problem and I would like some sort of way to counter.

Allied flares have the same problem. Recon flares should be reworked to just be a visual clue with the actual ability being increased sight range for units in the targeted area.

Obers I believe are fine.

Obers are not really fine, they come out too late and have a lot of trouble going up against vet2-3 enemy infantry. OKW T4 should be split up so Obers can be deployed much earlier from a 150MP/50FU setup with the AA gun upgrade, Ober LMG upgrade and armor being behind a 50MP/70FU upgrade. Moving Obers down to the early mid game would probably also allow for Volks opening to be nerfed a bit.

I believe some form of these changes / edits would help even it out but ofc not all of this has to come forward and OFC stuff is always up in the air but I agree OKW is rather easy to play compared to OST and allies. Thats not to say in 1v1 they aren't hard but 2v2+ they surely aren't as punishing as other factions.

OKW has plenty of gaps in their lineup that makes them arguably harder to play mid/late game than the much more rounded Ostheer, such as lacking a good AI vehicle or proper handheld AT infantry. It doesn't help that their HMG and ATG are basically trash (with camo cheese being the only thing that makes the ATG somewhat usable).

So your solution to volks is to ignore your SLIGHTLY cheaper troops because they are going to get shit canned (despite being nearly the same price) and use the 50mp more troops exclusively, or spam the more expensive MG (the one with the deathloop that suffers greatly from enemy flame nades that can be thrown well before Supression) for the soviet
As ukf you need to be completely defensive with your 30mp more troops and make sure you don't get caught out of position

As usf you need to blob your 30mp more expensive TROOPS AND keep them in cover so you can "at least push volks back to have some breathing room"

Sure sounds like volks are operating according to cost. Completely dummy things around their cost and force defensive play out of units that should be outclassing them.

I'm ko mathematician here but shouldn't the outmanouvering and sticking to cover to get the upper hand not be on the CHEAPER unit, not the more expensive one?

Volks need to be decently good because they are the only mainline infantry unit OKW can build early-mid game, same reason many of you are arguing about Rifles' potency. And Rifles outscale Volks hard later on, when they gain some vets.
You don't exactly need to be defensive against OKW as UKF, you can push slowly with the MG or UC. Soviet can do the same, but many times better with Penals in clown cars. The Maxim is not as bad as you think (even crazy good with lightning fast setup-teardown time), you just need to screen it with Conscripts and you're set.
If the cost is your problem then I'm fine with increasing their build cost to about 260-270 MP, but their reinforce cost should stay the same, they are weaker in the long run after all.

Counter-less recon is defo a problem and I would like some sort of way to counter.

If a counter is made then it should be included for axis too as allies have a decent amount of flares too.

If a counter is made then it should be included for axis too as allies have a decent amount of flares too.

Which allied flare ability lasts so long, uncovers large portion of the map and can be dropped anywhere on the map without specialized unit in close range?

Which allied flare ability lasts so long, uncovers large portion of the map and can be dropped anywhere on the map without specialized unit in close range?

Point is that axis have flares in the game only in one faction & 1 commander even if it's powerful ability. (Ost think only in Jaeger squad from 1 commander).

If you can suddenly shoot flares down it should be right that Axis can do it too.

Starting resources:

USF: 400MP + 15F(20F in mod) + 200 from REs = 600MP + 15F(20F)
UKF: 340MP + 20F + 280MP = 620MP + 20F
Soviet: 390MP + 20F + 170MP = 560MP + 20F
OST: 420MP + 20F + 200MP = 620MP + 20F
OKW: 340MP + 5F + 300MP = 640MP + 5F

Yeah I don't think "extra manpower" is that massive here since you gain 50MP, which is the largest gap here in about 13 seconds.... I'd gladly trade 40ish MP for volks to scale lategame. Not to mention OKWs teching costs more in terms of MP. 300 per structure down comparing with other factions.

That also says nothing about the fact that the extra manpower is in the sturms, which fall off pretty hard once weapon upgrades come online.

Over the Soviet okw has a massive 80mp bonus on top of competent engineers and conscripts+ this is compounded by the immediate 160mp cost to get out units that don't suck ass. That's a whole squad worth of MP AND lost field control of building the building then whatever non shit unit the Soviet chooses to build.
As it is that average of 40ish manpower would allow the Soviet to buld 2 constcripts and build their building or build a conscript, the building and then a mortar or very shortly build a Maxim.

And volks have been give HEAPS to allow them to perform better yet still are able to up fight effectively. They have been give a no drawback weapon upgrade they have been given a snare and they have been given a better form of the molotov (all of which doesn't cost extra manpower like the Soviet versions) AND have guaranteed MG support 100% of the time. They don't dodge bullets like cons at vet 3 this is true, but for literally every other purpose they scale far better. No they don't whomp the more expensive rifles and Tommies armed with far more munitions in upgrades that require additional manpower and fuel but I think for the massive side investment of literally nothing but trying to get tanks I think they do alright. Okw also has Obers to help take the edge off the more expensive and more invested in enemy troops.

Over the Soviet okw has a massive 80mp bonus on top of competent engineers and conscripts+ this is compounded by the immediate 160mp cost to get out units that don't suck ass. That's a whole squad worth of MP AND lost field control of building the building then whatever non shit unit the Soviet chooses to build.
As it is that average of 40ish manpower would allow the Soviet to buld 2 constcripts and build their building or build a conscript, the building and then a mortar or very shortly build a Maxim.

And volks have been give HEAPS to allow them to perform better yet still are able to up fight effectively. They have been give a no drawback weapon upgrade they have been given a snare and they have been given a better form of the molotov (all of which doesn't cost extra manpower like the Soviet versions) AND have guaranteed MG support 100% of the time. They don't dodge bullets like cons at vet 3 this is true, but for literally every other purpose they scale far better. No they don't whomp the more expensive rifles and Tommies armed with far more munitions in upgrades that require additional manpower and fuel but I think for the massive side investment of literally nothing but trying to get tanks I think they do alright. Okw also has Obers to help take the edge off the more expensive and more invested in enemy troops.

Dunno where you're getting 80MP when I put 50 in those stats, and then mentioned the engineers. The "units that don't suck ass" dumpster OKW for the first 5+ minutes of the game and are virtually uncontestable.

Yes everyone knows cons are not as good at volks at every stage that isn't conscript vet 3. That doesn't make volks good when they get rolled 1v1 vs anything that isn't a conscript or riflemen pre BAR. The thing about the StGs being a "no brainer upgrade" is that most upgrades in the game are no brainer in comparison to units stock weapons. G43s, LMG42, bren, BAR, StG volks, DP28 guards. The only choices there are what situation are you in. Need mobility and aggression? G43. Opponet playing aggressive? LMG42 to crush at range and Pgrens to deny push. 2x Bren gun DPS still superior to lee einfields anywhere outside of 10 range. BARs literally no brainer unless you're losing REs and officers so you need a zook squad. DP28s because 6 man AT squad needs LMGs and light snare. Obers depends on range and garrison clearing ability and if you have IR StGs available.

Cons vet 2 molotov > volk incin. same throw speed, better damage and cheap toss. Pre vet 2 cons yes I'd rather have the incingrenade. Also says nothing about oorah.

So the question is, what do you want volks to do? Make them weaker and OKW might start suffering in winrate fairly well since they'd probably be on the level of cons with an upgrade but without the vet. One of the better solutions would make OKW tech really fast like UKF and soon to be USF instead of this non linear garbage and drop obers into t0 but require a truck down and then severly lower ober stats so they go onto par with rifles tommies 2x upgrades with their own upgrades and vet. That approaches "full OKW overhaul" territory though, and it will be awhile for that to consider occuring.

Dunno where you're getting 80MP when I put 50 in those stats, and then mentioned the engineers. The "units that don't suck ass" dumpster OKW for the first 5+ minutes of the game and are virtually uncontestable.

Yes everyone knows cons are not as good at volks at every stage that isn't conscript vet 3. That doesn't make volks good when they get rolled 1v1 vs anything that isn't a conscript or riflemen pre BAR. The thing about the StGs being a "no brainer upgrade" is that most upgrades in the game are no brainer in comparison to units stock weapons. G43s, LMG42, bren, BAR, StG volks, DP28 guards. The only choices there are what situation are you in. Need mobility and aggression? G43. Opponet playing aggressive? LMG42 to crush at range and Pgrens to deny push. 2x Bren gun DPS still superior to lee einfields anywhere outside of 10 range. BARs literally no brainer unless you're losing REs and officers so you need a zook squad. DP28s because 6 man AT squad needs LMGs and light snare. Obers depends on range and garrison clearing ability and if you have IR StGs available.

Cons vet 2 molotov > volk incin. same throw speed, better damage and cheap toss. Pre vet 2 cons yes I'd rather have the incingrenade. Also says nothing about oorah.

So the question is, what do you want volks to do? Make them weaker and OKW might start suffering in winrate fairly well since they'd probably be on the level of cons with an upgrade but without the vet. One of the better solutions would make OKW tech really fast like UKF and soon to be USF instead of this non linear garbage and drop obers into t0 but require a truck down and then severly lower ober stats so they go onto par with rifles tommies 2x upgrades with their own upgrades and vet. That approaches "full OKW overhaul" territory though, and it will be awhile for that to consider occuring.

I got 80mp from the math you provided using your totals. Considering the power gap between sturms and CE there is NOT enough of a difference in starting manpower especially considering the 160mp Soviet need to drop to get combat units on the field.

The speed isn't what makes the flame nade good, it's the range, that and that's its gifted to you but mostly the range. With Supression stiffing range being able to throw from further out before the Supression kicks in is paramount for being able to push through anything.
And again, we have the upgrade. Sure it's only 10fu and 80mp now but once more we have an MP cost the OKW doesn't suffer to get molitovs and molitovs are ALMOST as good in certain scenarios if you add the addition munitions of oorah and the audio cue.

And I don't think BARs nor brems should be as good as they are, but they NEED to be as they are so they can actually win against units 30mp and an armful of munitions and side techs cheaper.
STGs literally buff every ranges DPS and work well on the move. Usf BARs they at least need to hit the base sector to equip and ukf do as well unless they sink more mp in. Volks don't even need friendly territory like cons and grens do allowing them to keep up the aggression. No drawback. No Brainer.

Sturms imo should be toned down but made cheaper and improved via munitions. Say 2 STGs and 2 MP40s for say 260mp (ball park) and upgrade into assault (more or less pgrens) AT or sweeper/repair support. And I think Obers need be be made more accessible. If you are truly interested I can link the thread I made on the official forums about it. I would seriously be interested in your input on the idea.

OKW DOES need an overhaul because their current set up of volks seize the day is balance breaking. What's even the point of an mp cost when they fight well outside of it? 250mpand 60 mu force the usf and ukf to need to spend fuel to match them while the OKW player just worked towards tanks..
Volks set the stage just be being on field and that's bad balance.

So your solution to volks is to ignore your SLIGHTLY cheaper troops because they are going to get shit canned (despite being nearly the same price) and use the 50mp more troops exclusively, or spam the more expensive MG (the one with the deathloop that suffers greatly from enemy flame nades that can be thrown well before Supression) for the soviet
As ukf you need to be completely defensive with your 30mp more troops and make sure you don't get caught out of position

As usf you need to blob your 30mp more expensive TROOPS AND keep them in cover so you can "at least push volks back to have some breathing room"

Sure sounds like volks are operating according to cost. Completely dummy things around their cost and force defensive play out of units that should be outclassing them.

I'm ko mathematician here but shouldn't the outmanouvering and sticking to cover to get the upper hand not be on the CHEAPER unit, not the more expensive one?

From my post in another thread:

"I did this comparison for cons, but now I think it would help to do it for riflemen too. Raw numbers in the top section, relative ratios at the bottom, sorry for the formatting:

Rifle squad effective durability: 5.15 effective models

Volks: 5 effective models

Rifle squad DPS at max range: 8.49 DPS

Volks: 9.035 DPS

Rifle squad DPS at 3 range: 33.945

Volks squad DPS at 0 range: 23.71

Rifle squad vet 0, 1 bar, 34* range DPS: 10.835 DPS

Volks vet0, 2 stgs, 34* range: 9.488 DPS

(*volks stgs spike up in DPS from 1.446 at 35 to 1.96 DPS at 34, given this detail, its probably more useful and informative to take the DPS at 34 and not 35)

Rifles, vet 0, 1 bar, close (3 range): 40.36 DPS

Volks, vet 0, 2 stgs, close (0 range): 29.266 DPS

Rifles, vet 3 effective durability: 7.81

Volks vet 3 durability: 6.49

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 34 range: 18.062

Volks, vet 5, 2 stgs, 34 range: 13.326

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 3 range: 64.439

Volks, vet 3, 2 stgs, 0 range: 39.779




Rifles/volks vet 0 effective durability: 103%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS max range: 94%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS close: 143%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, 34 range: 114%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, close range: 138%

Rifles/volks vet 3 effective durability: 120%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, 34 range: 136%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, close range: 162%


Didn't double check my calculations. Even counting the difference in utility (flame nades, and sandbags) and rack costs, to me, these numbers justify rifles costing 12% more. If you make rifles 260/26 as some have suggested, then ask yourself whether or not the utility that volks bring is actually equivalent to these combat advantages rifles have."

So yes, I DO think volks are operating according to cost. I could do the same comparison against tommies or penals, but there's no point. The results are already pretty obvious. I already did the work for this comparison though, so it's at least fairly easy to copy paste this every time someone decides to make a post that either makes up random numbers, rewrites facts, or ignores how the game ACTUALLY works.

Anyway, none of your statements about how allies are forced to use their infantry in the OKW matchup actually necessarily have to do with volks' cost efficiency, or even performance.