Volks are disgustingly good, need toning down.

Don't forget to add SP and 100mp advantage making 4xvolks start basic vs USF. As I stated before Volks are just the tree that hides the forest of balance issues on this matchup.
Then sandbag completely mitigate the difference in dps at long range and flamnde the difference in dps at close range.
Honestly both abilities make early volks way too good vs vanilla riflemen.
Now i also know that removing those abilities would put OKW in jeopardy vs Soviet...

Right. I'm trying to keep it focused around what other people are arguing though. They argue volks are too cost effective, I try to show that that's not the case. I didn't add the sturmpioneer and 100mp advantage because that's not relevant to whether or not volks are too cost effective.

And that's basically the issue, I think: people ARE factoring this stuff in when they say volks are too cost effective. The thing is, that's a sturmpioneer issue then. That's a starting manpower issue then. That's not a volks cost efficiency issue. If volks cost efficiency isn't the problem, then why mess with it? If sturmpioneers and starting manpower are the issue, then thats what you need to be changing.

As for the flamenade/sandbag point you brought up, I'd argue that can lead you to solutions that create more problems. If sandbags are too good, then make them slower to build or get rid of them. If flame nades are too good, then change them somehow. But if we make rifles 260/26 because "sandbags and flamenades mitigate the dps difference" meaning that the two squads should be similar in cost, then you have rifle squads that are hyper efficient in combat capability to cost ratio. Volks will get murdered in combat any time they dont spend munitions or have a defensive position already set up, against a similarly costed unit with similar upkeep. Beyond that, when certain teching is reached, or with certain doctrine choices, volks dont even have that utility advantage.

Entirely agree with you on those points.

If Rifles go to 26 reinforce...
Remember post nerf REs are 25, I'm sure there is a better approach on fixing the issue, besides making Rifles completely overshadow most USF elite infantry.

Since your post is going to get invised anyway, ill take this chance to also speak candidly...

Calm the fuck down lol, no need to personally attack him or act that rude

Meanwhile grens are 30 reinforce

If you make rifles 260/26 as some have suggested, then ask yourself whether or not the utility that volks bring is actually equivalent to these combat advantages rifles have.

I suggested to make them cheaper towards 260 MP so they can be fielded quicker to help USF face the OKW early game onslaught. Which is why I also suggested the ~60MP that is saved in the standard 3x Riflemen build should then go into weapon racks tech so USF mid game power spike remains at the same manpower timing. I don't think reinforcement cost should be lowered in this solution. Either this or increase the starting MP a bit.

I think Riflemen are fine or even good/excellent for their cost, especially at max potential (great vet and double BAR). I just feel that USF struggles to field enough units quick enough to stop the OKW Sturmpioneer/Volksgrenadier mass in the first 5 minutes.

Its been 5 years and people still don't know how reinforcement costs are calculated despite very easy formula...

I suggested to make them cheaper towards 260 MP so they can be fielded quicker to help USF face the OKW early game onslaught. Which is why I also suggested the ~60MP that is saved in the standard 3x Riflemen build should then go into weapon racks tech so USF mid game power spike remains at the same manpower timing. I don't think reinforcement cost should be lowered in this solution. Either this or increase the starting MP a bit.

I think Riflemen are fine or even good/excellent for their cost, especially at max potential (great vet and double BAR). I just feel that USF struggles to field enough units quick enough to stop the OKW Sturmpioneer/Volksgrenadier mass in the first 5 minutes.

Could just take away okws magic bonus manpower. I mean Soviet can't build a building and start building a unit out of asap but okw can lead with a shock unit and have a versatile build started right behind them?

I think Riflemen are fine or even good/excellent for their cost, especially at max potential (great vet and double BAR). I just feel that USF struggles to field enough units quick enough to stop the OKW Sturmpioneer/Volksgrenadier mass in the first 5 minutes.

Again, just look at how youre describing this issue. Youre talking about it as if it were an okw starting manpower + sturm problem, and not a rifle problem (because it is). Again, fix whats broken. Changing rifles is tantamount to changing whats not broken in an attempt to fix something else thats broken.

Its been 5 years and people still don't know how reinforcement costs are calculated despite very easy formula...

Yes, the garbage excuse of "I have more models therefore my reinforcement cost should be cheaper". People who think 6 models is worse than 4 are players who think models dying is only determined by RA

I agree with Jae on the point that the promblem may be not the Volks themselves but the initial combination for OKW. Maybe reducing starting MP or changing start unit from Sturms to Volks could solve it. In that way the OKW player needs to decide if he needs a versatile unit or a strong sturms. If the initial unit becomes Volks then sandbag ability should stay. But if sturms are the initial unit maybe Volks should get a little nerf on flamenade range or sandbag build time, but not both.

Since your post is going to get invised anyway, ill take this chance to also speak candidly...

Calm the fuck down lol, no need to personally attack him or act that rude

Easy for you to say, he isn't attacking you on every single thread and being a douche towards you.


Me: "I think the case is A".

Esxile: "Omg you're a retard lol go fk yourself"

Anyone else: "I think the case is A"

Esxile: "I agree with your points"


Endured this dozens of times from this same guy, and me "acting that rude" is obviously in proportion to his behaviour towards me.

Easy for you to say, he isn't attacking you on every single thread and being a douche towards you.


Me: "I think the case is A".

Esxile: "Omg you're a retard lol go fk yourself"

Anyone else: "I think the case is A"

Esxile: "I agree with your points"


Endured this dozens of times from this same guy, and me "acting that rude" is obviously in proportion to his behaviour towards me.

"Attack where your opponet is weak" -Sun Tzu

He plays 1 faction. How much insight on a faction he doesn't play can you expect from said person. Ignore him.

Yes, the garbage excuse of "I have more models therefore my reinforcement cost should be cheaper". People who think 6 models is worse than 4 are players who think models dying is only determined by RA

Actually the patches are moving away from a standard formula for reinforcement cost and time patch by patch.

Again, just look at how youre describing this issue. Youre talking about it as if it were an okw starting manpower + sturm problem, and not a rifle problem (because it is). Again, fix whats broken. Changing rifles is tantamount to changing whats not broken in an attempt to fix something else thats broken.

Could just take away okws magic bonus manpower. I mean Soviet can't build a building and start building a unit out of asap but okw can lead with a shock unit and have a versatile build started right behind them?

That's because I think it's only the USF that really suffer from OKW's opening combo. The Soviets seem to do fine and the Brits have a fair chance with HMGs and UC. Combining this with the GCS2 win rate conclusion that currently faction balance is kinda (UKF<USF<)OKW=SOV=OST I wouldn't make any drastic changes to any of the latter three factions and instead buff the UKF and USF up to standard. Which is why for the USF I'm proposing a solution that fixes the symptons of the OKW/USF imbalance rather than its core problem, because fixing this core problem has side effects for at least the OKW/Soviet matchup which seems somewhat balanced right now. It might not be the best solution but it's the easiest I reckon.

Yes, the garbage excuse of "I have more models therefore my reinforcement cost should be cheaper". People who think 6 models is worse than 4 are players who think models dying is only determined by RA

If 2 squads have equal cost of getting a squad, then yes, the one with more models will have lower reinforcement. More expensive squad with more models will also have lower cost.
No, its not garbage excuse, its mathematical fact that people who aren't friends with numbers are unable to beat into their own thick skulls.

No matter how you try to spin and twist it, reinforcement costs are fair and round to ~40% of squads total cost to fully reinforce from 1 model.

Easy for you to say, he isn't attacking you on every single thread and being a douche towards you.


Me: "I think the case is A".

Esxile: "Omg you're a retard lol go fk yourself"

Anyone else: "I think the case is A"

Esxile: "I agree with your points"


Endured this dozens of times from this same guy, and me "acting that rude" is obviously in proportion to his behaviour towards me.

Lol, your solution is to make USF riflemen worst late game but still equal early game for cheaper price. Definitively not case A.
If you don't see the incoming issue USF would get vs Pzgren and Obers, can't help you more.

Imo riflemen should become once more the best and more versatile (able to fight in many ranges) mainline infantry available before minute one, due to the USF faction design/limitations.

That would probably mean that infantries available in the same time frame from other faction will need to be toned down.

Imo riflemen should become once more the best and more versatile (able to fight in many ranges) mainline infantry available before minute one, due to the USF faction design/limitations.

That would probably mean that infantries available in the same time frame from other faction will need to be toned down.

As mentioned above, the issue isn't being the best because as you already mentioned it, USF riflemen are already superior to volks and, on the other hand, need to have a certain balance with Pzgren and Obers.
The problem is more about timing and manpower available to outspam the USF on the early game disponible for OKW.