Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

So its ok that allies can spam one Unit and gets big profit and less micro...while axis need combine arms and much more micro. I know why i dont like allies spam play...and why its bores me.

Are you dense?
In the very post you've quoted I've compared it to allied unit of the same role, which you've guessed it, can NOT be used as mainline infantry, because it serves the exact same role of force multiplier.

Different units have different roles.

Just because the unit got 2 legs and 4 or more models does -NOT- make it a mainline infantry.

OKW got 7 different infantry units.
Why do you have such a hard time comprehending that not all of them exist to fulfill the exact same role?

Jagers need lower pop Cap and faster reinforcement time (pgs also need lower reinforcement time, the reinforcement time of many units have gone down but someone forgot to bring some units inline. Actually imo reinforcement time should standardised according to unit "type" ).

NKVD RIFLE DISRUPTION TACTICS
Rapid Conscription – Removed
Rapid Conscription replace conscript with a Shtrafbat units from campaign. Shtrafbat unit has a target size 1 weapon a bit lower than conscript, has a version of merge that heals 6 HP to target but the unit can not reinforce. So the units serve are replacement to troops lost. In addition one does not end up with unwanted conscript squads

Recon Flight - Removed
Fear Propoganda – Removed
KV-8
-Added to the doctrine
-Now receives 20% less damage, similar to the KV-1
I see little reason for the KV-8 to be in this doctrine thematically. Rapid conscription is fine for this doctrine which feel that it should be more infantry based.

Suggestions for KV-8:
Make the unit available 2 ways, one as call in for a price, two as build-able from T4 for a lower price. That change will allow better timing across all mods.

Remove it from Soviet Industry Tactics Shock Rifle Front-line Tactics so that it can not act as stop gap until one can call Super heavies.

Reduce rear armor (as with KV-1, Churchill). Value are simply too high compared to other vehicles.
Fix the veterancy bonuses to fit the role of vehicle since ti currently get many mobility bonuses (same goes to KV-1) and replace them with thing like Armour/HP.
Make the damage reduction a vet 1 activated ability with a duration since "secure mod" does not suit the unit.

Move the DOT flames damage to an ability and adjust DPS accordingly.

Commissar Squad (New Unit)
This new unit represents a formidable combat and utility squad in keeping with the doctrine's theme.
-5 Man Squad: Commissar Officer armed with a pistol. Commissar escorted by four Guards Riflemen wielding SVTs. This unit has three abilities.
-Costs 2 CPs and 260 Manpower
-Ability one - Stand Your Ground: Grants a targeted squad -30% received accuracy and -10% received damage. The squad cannot move unless told to retreat during its 20 second duration; shares a cooldown with Fight to the Death. Costs 20 munitions
-Ability Two- Fight to the Death: Grants targeted squad +20% weapon accuracy and 0.5 cooldown. Increases incoming weapon accuracy by 20%; shares a cooldown with Stand Your Ground. Costs 20 munitions.
-Ability Three - Interrogate: Grants the locations of all enemy forces on the mini-map when a model is interrogated. This ability is free.
Mod 1.2 changes
-New Ability: Propaganda Barrage: Calls in a small barrage of 4 shells that is similar to Fear Propoganda. 45 munitions
-'Stand Your Ground' and 'Fight to the Death' cooldown from 60 to 30.

Imo the units seem to be situational and macro intensive and could use a redesign.
Suggestions:
Unit comes with an aura that provides a small bonus to infantry like:
longer range/lower throw time for molotovs/satchels
The same aura gives more bonuses to conscripts when they activate "ourah" like 0.80 target size and x1.1 Accuracy.
This change allow the player to choose how much munition he wants to invest in improving his infantry.
Propaganda Barrage make the similar commander ability look pale in comparison and can be replaced by the ability the okw officer has that targets a single unit.

Scorched Earth Policy (New Ability)
Allows Engineers to place a trap on points; when triggered an incendiary mortar shell will be launched that damages nearby infantry and will stop the point’s ability to generate resources for 60 seconds
-Costs 35 Munitions
-Available from 3 CPs
-Detected by minesweepers
-Capturing the point remove the trap if it does not detonate, similar to booby traps and early warning flares
Price seems a bit too low compared to a mine. Maybe up to 45-60

URBAN DEFENSE TACTICS
Armored Vehicle detection – Removed
Armored Vehicle Detection
Redesign ability with 2 parts. First part infantry can detect vehicles to range 70 when static for the duration, second part infantry hitting vehicles provides vision on vehicle similar to UKF hammer tactics for 3 secs.

Shock Troops
In keeping with the Urban theme of this doctrine, Shock Troops have been added. Furthermore, Shock Troops have received moderate buffs to their mid-range capabilities. Their close-range potency remains unchanged up to 10 meters.
-PPsH-41 mid range accuracy from 0.276 to 0.35
-PPsH-41 aim-time multiplier from 1.25 to 0.85
-PPsH-41 cooldown duration multiplier from 1.25 to 0.85
-PPsH-41 mid burst duration multiplier from 0.325 to 0.65
-Mid-range from 16 to 17

Shock troops is one of the most common ability and another commander with shock is simply not needed. In addition turning PPsh-41 into Thompson is a very very bad decision for a number of reason.

One, if smgs need to be stronger at mid range that change should apply to all SMG and not just one. Weapon profiles and relative positioning was one of the best changes in the game and one should try to find solution keep in them in mind.

Two, if Shock need more DPS that should come later and not at CP 2 either with veterancy or a weapon upgrade.

Three, the main problem of shock toops is bleed and not damage.

Suggestions:
Reinforcement price from 31 to 30
New vet 1 ability "bulletproof" *0.75 target size *0.90 accuracy for 25 munition.
Maybe replace some of the vet 3 accuracy bonus with reload and/or cool-down so the unit is not that lethal with picked up weapons.
Make armour bonus a squad ability instead of an entity ability so that merging to shocks becomes more efficient and support weapons crew by shocks less durable.

45mm Anti-Tank Gun
This unit was under performing. The following changes attend to make it a more attractive choice with added utility later into the game.
-Penetration from 100/80/60 to 160/80/60
-Now has Ambush Camouflage ability by default; first-strike bonus of +20% accuracy, +20% reload and -25% reload
-Tracking veteran ability replaced; Vehicle units hit by a veteran 45mm ATG will be temporary visible, even in the FOW
A clear case of overbuffing a unit. The unit is dirty cheap and it should not buffed just to compete with Zis. First strike bonus are over the top especially since the ones available to RW/JP4 are locked behind vet (do they first strike bonuses stuck if m42 is crewed a commander with atg camo?). The unit should be simply redesigned to be a counter light vehicles. The vet 1 ability is simply OP since it negates smoke

Suggestions:
Redesign unit as light vehicle counter. Increase accuracy keep penetration and damage low. Reduce reaction times/time to fire, increase angle. Replace vet 1 "tracking" ability with "rapid movement" similar to 6 pounder. Replace vet 2 reload buff with faster tear down setup and replace vet penetration with the reload speed. If unit become very effective increase cost to 240.

Forward Headquarters
As an alternative to designating a command building, this ability now also allows the player to build a Field Base; this structure reinforces and heals nearby infantry.
-Costs 200 manpower and 25 fuel
Price and timing for field base is simply too low especially when Ostheer need 300/120 mu for the same structures. It run a serious risk of promoting conscript spam.
In addition FH can be very powerful in team-games, aura bonuses to teammates should be lowered or removed.

Suggestions:
Change aura to a timed active one or break it to a small/medium passive one and the rest in active one. Move to CP 1 or 2. Allow building to be decaped. Unlock base medics also?

Booby Trap
The Booby Trap is being adjusted to be deal more damage over a larger area, whilst being incapable of destroying full squads. Cost has been adjusted appropriately.
-Cost reduced from 100 to 45
-Damage from 250 to 80
-AOE distance from 1.5/3/4.5 to 0.25/3/6
Replace damage with a Fire DOT one

ADDITIONAL SOVIET NOTES
76mm Sherman
Due to the changes to USF Mechanized Company, Soviets will also benefit from the following changes to this unit.
-Population from 14 to 12
-Cost from 380/135 to 380/125

Some of your points are already made, but not public yet. So the team agrees to some of your points.
Tho we disagree to some points too.
You will see the result in the next patch

Thx for your input.

Some of your points are already made, but not public yet. So the team agrees to some of your points.
Tho we disagree to some points too.
You will see the result in the next patch

Thx for your input.

Thanks for the taking the time to read (my rather large) post and replaying to it.
Disagreeing is perfectly normal and I would be very much surprised if we agreed in all points.

Glad that I could be of help.

Put the Hetzer in the game god damn it.

It only overlaps with the JP4 if you tie it to OKW T4. Make it buildable from the HQ once you have ANY two trucks built.

This ^ You could side tech as OKW and still have an AT vehicle. It would offer choice, always good in a strategy game. I think it would work better than the M10/M36 option.

"45mm Anti-Tank Gun

This unit was under performing. The following changes attend to make it a more attractive choice with added utility later into the game.

Penetration from 100/80/60 to 160/80/60
Now has Ambush Camouflage ability by default; first-strike bonus of +20% accuracy, +20% reload and -25% reload
Tracking veteran ability replaced; Vehicle units hit by a veteran 45mm ATG will be temporary visible, even in the FOW"

Their seem to an error in patch notes since the units gets "+20% reload and -25% reload" first strike bonus. If had to guess I would say the first one is a penetration bonus.

USF Armor Company

Thanks for putting HE on M10. I've only tried it on a comp-stomp so would like to try it in an actual game before making too many comments on it. From the comp-stomps, it looks like you limited the damage to 40 hit points/model and tried to make it not kill any models, so it is like a stun grenade minus the stun. Against armor, it seems to just block vision which is an okay compromise. Having it stun armor could be really bad because 3 M10's could swarm just about anything if they had stun. It would still be good to give the M10 better vision, which was the entire point of having an open-top turret, and possibly a pintle MG.

The Assault Engineer's 5th man doesn't help that much because by they time they get the 5th man, the amount of indirect fire makes all USF infantry squishy. It's still 280 mp for a unit that performs much more similar to the Ost 200mp engineer than the 300 mp Sturmpio. To make them usable, you'd either have to give them a buff to RA or lower their price to around 220-230 and lower reinforce cost. I think it would be better to lower the price. If you buffed their RA, then they would likely roll over OST in the early game.

I admit, I had my doubts on NKVD rifle disruption in v1, but with the return of fear propaganda in the Commissar ability makes me happy

Although the 20% damage reduction is nice on the KV-8, I still think it's silly that it can't fire both guns at the same time like the Croc can. It's not like the gun on it is particularly great, it's just another micro tax. Hell, you can even nerf the gun if you want to. I doubt anyone uses the KV-8 for the gun.

The HE on the M10 feels nice. Good way to differentiate them from the Jackson.

I feel like the changes to Elite Armor for OKW are a bit too conservative and isn't really much of an commander ability revamp, but just general balance change. Feels kinda same-y.

After testing out the UKF a bit I think the Sapper snares are a great change that makes UKF feel much better.

The Tommy mines feel a little out of place and part of me thinks they should probably be doctrinal.

Just a few quick nuggets based on (disclaimer) me messing around in cheat mod against AI.

Sector Artillery - this feels borderline broken on certain maps/points - especially Center VPs on many maps since they act as a connector. For example if you use it on Center VP on Langres it turns your entire half of the map into a No-Go zone the way you wish Perimeter Overwatch worked.

Infantry - It feels kind of clunky to have both Arty Officer AND Storm Troopers in a doctrine. Do I use 5 men Grenadiers, AND both call-ins? Combined with fact that Stormtroopers now use Arty Officer weapons profile it's very awkward.

Elite Armor - Still feels very much "not worth" - The repair is still way overcosted for 200 HP (1 AT Shot *twirls finger*) The Panzer Commander still feels pretty situational - it might not hurt if you added increased Vet gain or something to sweeten the upgrade since you're forgoing Pintle AI for it.

Infantry - It feels kind of clunky to have both Arty Officer AND Storm Troopers in a doctrine. Do I use 5 men Grenadiers, AND both call-ins? Combined with fact that Stormtroopers now use Arty Officer weapons profile it's very awkward.

And the 5-man Pios on top of that and you've got three CQC squads.

Veteran Squad Leaders is really neat, but having two call-ins it doesn't work with is a bit much. I'd ditch one and put the off-map back personally. Or the Smoke Bombs plane. That ability's excellent and I'd love to see more of it.

Another idea: given Stormtroopers are becoming a short-range unit maybe rework the Officer into a mid-range unit like the Jaeger Commander? I wonder how difficult giving it a midrange STG retinue would be to balance.

Commissar Squad is too overloaded with abilities. Targeted buff ability isn't a good idea, enemy will focus squad with activated "Fight to the Death" and ignor squad with "Stand Your Ground". Interrogate is one of the most unused abilities.

In my view commissar needs some kind of always activated aura buff(for example: To Te Last Man ability to all inf squad inside aura, excluding penals, snipers and engineers) + situational timed aura buff or risk/reward ability (something like immunity to suppression and +50% received accuracy)
Show Spoiler

Meh, as I predicted Commisar is worthless unit.
Squad does not have single useful skill aside of Fear Propaganda (which was on commander even before rework), all other abilities are pointless gimmicks - the buffs are miniscule and there are hardly any proper targets to buff in first place
Conscripts without PPSh have less scaling into late game than osttruppen, buffing them is wasting munitions.
Penals are forced into PTRS without Guards covering them, meaning they are not good either.
Fear Propaganda aside this unit does not even feel like a proper officer unit, it feels like a ghetto penal squad with bells and whistles
After watching streams of commander patch in work it plays out like this: Commisar only used for Fear spam and thats all. Might as well remove fluff from unit and give it a grenade and vet1 "To the last man" and make it 6 man squad by default

.

in a standard game, okw infantry composition might look something like this:
sturm volk volk volk (volk) raketen (raketen) mg34 eliteinfantry (eliteinfantry)
jaegers would probably replace the mg34 or eliteinfantry slots, since you need volks to maintain map presence until 2 cp. however, jaegers are inferior to obers/falls/fusiliers in this role. if you decide to go volks > jaegers > obers, you have way too many infantry units to sustain reinforcing and puts a big hindrance on your manpower income. even in a 'force mulitplier' role, theyre quite bad because mid-late game infantry fights are all about killing the enemy as fast as possible, with the least amount of units possible. mid game fights focus around weapon upgrades, lmgs, bars, ppsh, etc, however the jaeger sniper requires time, not only for enemy squads to get low, but also for it to shoot as well. it would be nice if jaegers have guaranteed hit on their scoped g43, or if it shot faster, or if the scoped g43 automatically targetted the weakest model, but it does none of these things.

some people say theyre good for the recon role, but fusiliers are better because they not only have great vision range with the g43 package, but they also get flares at vet 1 and theyre 6 man. ive heard people say that jaeger boobies are useful, but obers have boobies as well in addition to having the best long range dps in the game. jaegers dont even have a first strike bonus to use with their camo.
youre basically paying for a grenadier squad that cant faust and cant riflenade, when you need something to compete against enemy infantry that are outscaling your volks

some people say theyre good for the recon role, but fusiliers are better because they not only have great vision range with the g43 package, but they also get flares at vet 1 and theyre 6 man. ive heard people say that jaeger boobies are useful, but obers have boobies as well in addition to having the best long range dps in the game. jaegers dont even have a first strike bonus to use with their camo.
youre basically paying for a grenadier squad that cant faust and cant riflenade, when you need something to compete against enemy infantry that are outscaling your volks

+1

Fusiliers would be more appropriate for Overwatch. That or Jaegers need a re-design.

This post may seem a little bit redundant, definitely long winded. However, I wanted to really get in depth about how I make a decision to choose a commander in order to demonstrate and make a strong case for why I still would not choose either of the two updated USF commanders in the most recent Commander Revamp Patch.

I've had the opportunity to try out 4 of the updated commanders so far in 2v2 vs. AI. I tested both of the USF commanders, the NKVD commander, and the German Infantry commander. I typically play the USF and Wehrmacht factions in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 automatch vs. players.

When I choose a commander for any faction in a game, I typically do it for one or two reasons. The first reason is that I've already formulated a plan or strategy on the loading screen that me or my team want to execute based upon the opposing factions, map, commanders the opposing team have selected, etc. An example would be selecting the Infantry Company USF commander preemptively because we're playing against 2-4 OKW players so that I can barrage any forward bases.

The second reason, which seems much more common for me, is selecting a commander in reaction to the other team's strategy or army composition. An example would be selecting USF Heavy Cavalry commander for the off map smoke barrage in response to multiple HMG's, with the added benefit of Rangers to flank and destroy them while the smoke is active.

The issue that I have with the Armor Company and Mechanized Company is that they don't offer many compelling abilities that solve a problem that the standard USF units don't already cover. I'll go through each ability below.

Armor Company

Assault Engineers: This unit is possibly the only compelling reason to choose this doctrine. This is primarily due to their ability to equip a flamethrower which is really helpful for clearing structures since this is something that standard USF units do poorly. The 5 man squad is a welcome buff, but possibly comes too late. I would personally exchange offensive ability for durability while retaining the ability to clear structures with a flamethrower. I would consider choosing this doctrine specifically for this unit, however I would choose Rifle Company first for flamethrowers because the other abilities included in that doctrine are more useful and attractive than the ones included in Armor Company.

Elite Vehicle Crews: I would define this ability as beyond redemption. I was surprised that it wasn't outright replaced based upon the criteria of the initial revamp announcement where it specifically mentioned that some commanders and abilities are likely beyond redemption. Without entirely changing what the ability was intended for from the start, I don't think this will ever be compelling. Adding repair speed and veterancy bonus to it is like applying lipstick to a pig, and it starts us down the road to completely overhauling this ability which is outside of the original scope of this patch.

I would stop any further development on this ability and outright replace it with a different ability that has already been tested and proven to be popular. I have seen "Mark Target" suggested previously, which would make sense and be desirable. Another suggestion would be something as simple and basic as unlocking Bazookas for free at 0-1 CP's instead of the Elite Vehicle Crews. I would never choose this doctrine specifically for Elite Vehicle Crews.

M10 Tank Destroyer: This is another ability/unit that I would consider to be redundant and currently pretty bad. It's all about timing with this one. The current fix only serves to modestly improve the unit while also making it more difficult and micro intensive to use. In order to make it attractive enough for me to want to use it, it would need to come out around the same time or just a touch later than a Puma for example. Other than that, it's pretty much always worth it to wait for the Jackson. I would never choose this doctrine specifically for this ability.

Sherman 105mm Dozer: Similar story as the M10. This unit doesn't currently offer anything special enough for me to want to choose it over the regular Sherman. It's more durable, but I can't think of a specific situation where a regular Sherman just wouldn't do the job, but a 105mm would. In the case of both this and the M10, I would rather see a different unit or ability in it's place, or a compelling reason to choose either one over a Jackson or standard Sherman. Currently the revamp isn't compelling enough. I would never choose this doctrine specifically for this ability.

240mm Artillery Barrage: The level of area denial this provides isn't worth the exorbitant munitions cost, full stop. Zeroing Artillery is the most comparable ability to this one. People fear Zeroing, the 240mm is a minor annoyance in comparison in my opinion. I would never choose this doctrine specifically for this ability.

You'll notice a recurring theme. A bunch of abilities that I would never choose the doctrine for specifically. The real issue then is when you put all of those abilities in one commander, does the sum of all of the abilities make it worth choosing? In this case, absolutely not in my opinion.

I think this post has gone on long enough, so I will separate my feedback on the other commanders into another post.

Also, I have had a tough time finding anyone to test the new patch with. If you'd like to join me for some custom games, add me on steam. I think my steam ID is attached to my profile here.

+1

Fusiliers would be more appropriate for Overwatch. That or Jaegers need a re-design.

I agree, and suggested this before the mod was up.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/81450/okw-commander-revamp-discussion/post/691593

I also dislike the current "redesign" of Elite Armor in that it's just (needed) buffs.

Ost Defensive Doctrine

Is there any chance you would consider a JP4 instead of a Stug E? I know it's previously been an OKW-only unit but think that it would round out this commander better. The PAK 43 will get countered in every team game but JP4's would give it a good AT option.

Other than that, I like the changes on both this and the German Infantry commander (other than not sure that the Stormtrooper change is better).

Feedback on British:

IS mines feel a bit weird and after I lost all of my Infantry Sections I basically replaced them with cheaper Royal Engineers, double armed with PIATs and upgraded to Heavy Engineers, made good use of their HEAT grenades, so in that regard I think that they will overshadow the IS a bit right now.

Apart from that, the Croc now feels a bit more proper compared to before and worth while.

So about the Tactical Support Regiment, I just got hit with a brilliant idea, how about the price for Air Supply Operation is increased a bit and athe USF mortar is added to it? It would be a unique way of giving the British a mobile mortar and I swear I will stop moaning about it. Please just at least test it out, see how it works.