Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Again from design point of view.

BRITISH ARTILLERY
A commander that focuses on the use of artillery the commander should designed to be able to counter enemy artillery while providing artillery of its own. With current patch the sheer volume that the commander can deploy with concentration barrage/pyrotechnics, Sexton with the very low cool down, victor barrage and Perimeter overwatch is simply overwhelming.

The commander should be focus in more options than sheer volume of arty.

3CP Early Warning
Ability is good and fits the commander

4CP Concentration Barrage
Ability is too strong combined with more powerful Sexton, with no veterancy victor while it competes with less munition cost pyrotechnics.

Suggestions:
Replace ability, there are many options:
New munition for pyrotechnics barrages like smoke, incendiary, WP, flares, Aibust.
A new ability that allow an upgrade to mortars pits increasing range
The ability to all infantry to call in "victor barrages" (no range limit) from on map mortar pits.

6CP Observation Detachment "Valentine"
The unit seem not to have specified role since it not a good candidate for a reckon vehicle and it is weak for medium tank. The thing that is good is roaming the battlefield with its very high speed (crushing infantry?) and calling victor barrage allowing the Sexton to fire continuously.

In reality the vehicle was actually more of infantry support tank and less of cruiser and was slow. There is little reason for the vehicle to be so fast in game.

Suggestions:
Rename the ability "Valentine" keep the unit as call in but also allow it as build-able at lower price.

Remove victor barrage and observation mode and balance the unit as light medium tank with slow speed.

Add the upgrade "observation detachment" that is limited to 1 and gives penalties to vehicles DPS. The upgrade gives the unit an aura that buff near by Sexton increasing the synergy with them (maybe allow them to use airbust shells). Vet 1 ability is modeled after soviet "trucking" with larger radar radius.

9CP Artillery Support Group
Modeling Sexton after Priest does not really work since different faction have different designs.
UKF is defending oriented faction and giving them a powerful arty will allow them play defensibly while inflicting allot of damage to the opponent. One has also to take into account that Sexton fire an extra shell, is cheaper (lower XP value?) has more powerful vet 2 bonus has access to "victor barrage".

Suggestions:
Tone down the buffs to the Sexton and increase utility with more munition types like incendiary, smoke, WP airbust offering small barrages (3 shells?) with lower cooldown.

Alternatively
Redesign the unit to be more like Scott offering indirect fire support instead of barrages or even having to use KV-2 siege mode.

10CP Perimeter Overwatch
The ability comes to late, is over priced.

Suggestions:
Replace with counter fire ability available to advance emplacement commander. It fits the commander better thematically and the ability should not be allow in the advance emplacement commander in the first place.

Why is the Crocodile for Tactical Support commander 180 fuel but for the other commanders it's 230?

i think mechanise is in a good spot CP2 cavalry riflemen finally access to smoke and they have to close in their AT satchel is good no need to nerf anything just leave it like this imo

The doctrine is quite lacking to become competitive.
As i said in other posts almost every revamped commander is not going to give competition to the usual three or four commonly used in our best loadouts.

Why should i take mech? For 2 cp close range infantry? i have stock rifles that are great, i can use paratroopers with thompson or rangers if i really need a very close range infantry unit.
Am i choosing that commander for dodge maybe? again, very situational unit, cool abilities but really hard to keep it alive during a balanced match.
I need that sherman? the stock one is enough in most situations.
Think about the other USF commanders. I want mechanized to play heavily on vehicles? Just go revamped armor company, it offers better stuff to do that. Or go pershing commander to get a strong heavy armor plus some other usefull stuff with it.

We should think how to make some real alternative to the usual commanders. There are plenty of "flavour" doctrines that no one uses unless he wants to troll or have an harder time winning a match.
The design of these commanders should be focused on some unique mix of useful abilies that can really make our choice worth it.

I'll make a quick example: Let's look at Commando regiment and Vanguard operations from UKF. Probably the last few patches made the first one a better pick overally but they have a good mix of abilities that make both doctrines worth to be played in a balanced match.

The doctrine is quite lacking to become competitive.
As i said in other posts almost every revamped commander is not going to give competition to the usual three or four commonly used in our best loadouts.
...

That is one of problems with the current attempt to revamp commander as decided by Relic. There are commander that combine some of the best abilities so it very difficult for other commander to catch up.

Instead of trying to make the revamped commander as good as the meta commanders and end up creating OP abilities as "sell" point one should:
1) determine a power level of the commanders of each faction
2) first nerf commanders that are above that level by removing op combination of abilities
3) bring the rest of the commander gradually at the same level

In other words nerfing the meta commanders make allot more commander viable and brings up underlying balance issues than revamping 2 of them at time.

The doctrine is quite lacking to become competitive.
As i said in other posts almost every revamped commander is not going to give competition to the usual three or four commonly used in our best loadouts.

Why should i take mech? For 2 cp close range infantry? i have stock rifles that are great, i can use paratroopers with thompson or rangers if i really need a very close range infantry unit.
Am i choosing that commander for dodge maybe? again, very situational unit, cool abilities but really hard to keep it alive during a balanced match.
I need that sherman? the stock one is enough in most situations.
Think about the other USF commanders. I want mechanized to play heavily on vehicles? Just go revamped armor company, it offers better stuff to do that. Or go pershing commander to get a strong heavy armor plus some other usefull stuff with it.

We should think how to make some real alternative to the usual commanders. There are plenty of "flavour" doctrines that no one uses unless he wants to troll or have an harder time winning a match.
The design of these commanders should be focused on some unique mix of useful abilies that can really make our choice worth it.

I'll make a quick example: Let's look at Commando regiment and Vanguard operations from UKF. Probably the last few patches made the first one a better pick overally but they have a good mix of abilities that make both doctrines worth to be played in a balanced match.

I saw some quotes saying that the commadner might be too strong in some scenarios and i disagree with them and mecha would need soem buffs for combetitive thow the jeep is in amazing spot and the cavalry riflemen have smoke withouth even techign adn the heavy AT snare is helpful to keep the enemy light tanks or tanks at range and the 76 is to TRY and vet it so it can be auto nuke

M-42 shells were too tiny for HE to be any effective, however small canister shells were indeed used, making it a "long" range "shotgun" of sorts.

Having modded this capability into the game before I've found that the t70 shell round simulates this effect as an AI tool rather well.

Though I am aware of your desire for argumentation in spite of any coherent position, so:

If you find any bug in the revamp, pls put it HERE

From a design point of view:
Imo the focus should be to better design the commander themselves and not trying to balance the faction. The aim should be to create viable commander that offer alternatives but not commander that OP to compete with the meta commander that OP themselves and they should be actually redesign to have less a power combination of abilities.

The changes should also follow the there theme of the commander.

When making the changes one could also see them as interim step requiring changes to other commander also.
For instance: interdiction "casualties intonation" make perfect sense for a unit like storm-troopers who actually where military intelligence even if it present to "light infantry training" where it does not belong. It can be removed from there in the next patch if it an issue with scope.

USF.

Armour company.
The theme of the commander implies heavy use of armor and an attempt should made to be followed.

Assault Engineers:
The idea of turning this unit into a "elite fighting" unit does not go along with "Armor" theme of commander. In addition the presence of "elite" infantry before minute 1 reduces from the tactical aspect of the game, since allot depends of the performance of that unit in the first engagements.

Finally 5 men squad being able to equip both flamers and assault rifles have already been proven problematic and should be avoided.

Suggestions:
Reduce cost/move to CP1 make the unit more about utility than raw firepower. Allow flamer for 4 men squad or 2 Thompson+1 entity locked behind officer.

Elite Vehicle Crews:
The Thompson change although an improvement it only leads to cheesy tactics especially in combination with M10 allowing to drive on atgs and disembark.

Suggestions:
Either scrap the ability or make it about veterancy as the name implies and that would also open the way for the reintroduction of "troop training".

Player could pay manpower and fuel making his vehicle more expensive while getting more out of the veterancy of his vehicle. For instance the can either be able to reach vet 4 or they could gain a small stat buff (10%) to the normal vet bonuses.

M10 Tank Destroyer:
Actually this unit does not fit the commander and other armor like the 78mm Sherman, easy8 or Persing seem allot more suitable. In addition the unit should not be competing with M36.

Suggestions:
Make the unit a call-in at an increased price but make it also build-able via major at the current price (this change should probably apply to other unit to increase usability across mode and economy inflation). Move unit to mechanized.

Sherman 105mm Dozer:
Modeling the unit after the brumbar is a mistake imo. The unit is available with no tech or with a cheap upgrade of 80 mu making far more cost efficient. Faction are completely differently designed and Brumbar is there to compensate for the weaker Ostheer infantry.

Suggestions:
One could redesign the unit as:
Infantry support tank similar to Churchill with emphasis on durability and not firepower
Assault gun proving indirect fire support either similar to KV-2 or to priest with sort range small number of shells (3?) and low cool-down.
or one could remove the unit from the commander.

240mm Artillery:
Although the changes are good for the design of the ability (the now make Gustav look even worse)
heavy artillery does not fight the commander so much thematically and lighter version of artillery maybe should be available.

Suggestions:
Replace the ability with a "105mm barrage" modeled after ostheer "Light Artillery Barrage". That would increase the synergy with armor since one could use the ability earlier during armor rushes without risking destroying his own armor. The ability could be moved to another commander.

MECHANIZED COMPANY
The theme of commander implies a heavy use of lighter vehicles and imo the commander should be focused in use of such vehicles.

WC-51:
(in game description does not mention the m21)
The unit's mark target and barrage abilities seem debutante since "refit and refuel" allow the unit to removed in later stages of the game.

Suggestions:
Replace assault engineers as crew to m3 with a normal crew, they overlap with cavalry riflemen and the m3 is way to cheap. Remove med-kits from m3 as unnecessary and exploitable.

Refit and refuel:
The ability suits the commander allot but it is confusing to use since the player does not know what it get back for removing a unit from the map. In addition it is open to exploits.

Suggestions:
Move the ability to the vehicles themselves and redesign the ability so that it allows light vehicles to be swamped with one other light vehicles for the cost difference (+ a taxation?) and maybe some XP. This will greatly improve the use versatility of the commander.

For instance if one can replace WC-51 with an m20 one could go captain and still have access to the unit or if one builds an m20 and he can replace it with a greyhound once can go Lt and still have access to pseudo light tank.

Swaps could either be specif or pop up could be available (allowing more options).

Cavalry Riflemen:
Although a infantry call-in seem a bit off for mechanized commander that already has more access to unit that any other commander it could still become viable with some changes.
Unit is way to strong for "mechanized commander" while it offers to mcuh AI and AT being able to equip a bazooka or a bar.

Suggestions:
Reduce CP 1, USF elite infantry suffer from the fact that a) come too late when player have already produced enough riflemen (and in addition officers will come) b) B are to expensive (and thus strong) in order to compete with the already strong riflemen.
Imo lowering their CP to 1 and reducing the cost/strength to riflemen will make easier to built while the can become more attractive by increasing their scaling and utility.

Reduce cost to 280 have start with 5 grease guns and have the Thompson as an upgrade taking up all slot (locked behind 1 officer). Lock satchel (and smoke?) behind grenades remove engine damage from satchel (maybe tone down damage abit) or replace with stun/daze. Allow access to paratroopers bazooka.
Vet 1 ability "light vehicle training" a passive or active aura providing a small buff to light vehicles like +5 sight -1 target size.

Combined Arms
The ability is nice but seems a bit expensive.

Suggestions:
Reduce cost to 70 and tone down affects.

Reserve armor
The ability is problematic with the current implementation. Thematically superior armor does not fit a mechanized commander. Access to 2 more doctrinal units while the commander already has access to 4 doctrinal unit bring the total to 6 is excessive. Dozer available for 80 munition is too cheap.

76mm Sherman vet bonuses are to high especially combined radio net.

Suggestions:
Replace with M10 as call-in/build-able unit.

76mm Sherman performance price and vet bonuses should not be connected with Soviet version of the unit. The faction and tech cost are different and the unit should be balanced separately. In addition one has to take into account that USF Sherman is already superior since it has radio net, smoke and disembark.

Unit could also be changed to a clone of the normal Sherman with access to AP rounds to differentiate the 2 units.

Btw, I have a suggestion to make for Elite Crews.

Make it a Passive that gives Crews 5 levels of veterancy, like the OKW.

The extra veterancy levels can be made so they give the crews more utility or combat capabilities instead of just combat capabilities and a bit faster repair, and would also make it overall easier on the player since you gotta get the crews out and upgrade them individually right now and so forth, making it a Passive would nullify that.

That is one of problems with the current attempt to revamp commander as decided by Relic. There are commander that combine some of the best abilities so it very difficult for other commander to catch up.

Instead of trying to make the revamped commander as good as the meta commanders and end up creating OP abilities as "sell" point one should:
1) determine a power level of the commanders of each faction
2) first nerf commanders that are above that level by removing op combination of abilities
3) bring the rest of the commander gradually at the same level

In other words nerfing the meta commanders make allot more commander viable and brings up underlying balance issues than revamping 2 of them at time.

some meta commanders are not necessarily OP. They simply get better mix of abilities compared to others.
Take for example the most common USF loadout ( i'm talking about 2v2s mostly). We usually take 1 commander for artillery ( priest or calliope), 1 commander for aggressive play ( tipically pershing commander) and 1 commander for map based gameplay (for example rifle company for flamers on maps with lot of buildings) or support tools (airborne).

Just look the first category, our artillery option:
1) infantry company, we get mines and sandbags for rifles ( good ability), Mortar HT (good unit, still quite unique if we considers our stock indirect fire options), LMGs ( good option, more firepower for long range maps), Time on target off map ( again, good option and very usefull) and finally Priest (good arty unit).

2) Tactical Support: LMGS (See above), M5 ( the only real AA option for usf since stock ones is bugged), Recon ( more durable recon run, usefull), P47 strafe run ( quite situational but usefull), Calliope ( good arty unit).

None of these abilities are OP imo, and both of these commanders can be a good choice.

As i said before, mechanized is poorly designed, even the revamped version. Main reason is the poor sinergy of the abilities and the overlapping units with the stock options.
Maybe is only my personal preference but i really see no reason to get this commander over Armor company or pershing.

some meta commanders are not necessarily OP. They simply get better mix of abilities compared to others....

True bur now take for example Tiger/g43/stuka loiter, Elephant/stuka bombing, Puma/Command PzIV and so on...

The problem is usually found in Soviet/Ostheer commanders, EFA commanders have mostly unique abilities that are more balanced.

The abilities available to a commander should be of about the power in total value.

Having modded this capability into the game before I've found that the t70 shell round simulates this effect as an AI tool rather well.

Though I am aware of your desire for argumentation in spite of any coherent position, so:

I'd rather keep its role strictly to AT, trying to get it to the state, where 2 of them would be able to stand up to P4 with slightly lower efficiency then single ZiS-3 if possible, considering any kind of AI capabilities only if that wouldn't be possible.

I don't want another PTRS only this time on wheels.

As i said before, mechanized is poorly designed, even the revamped version. Main reason is the poor sinergy of the abilities and the overlapping units with the stock options.
Maybe is only my personal preference but i really see no reason to get this commander over Armor company or pershing.

What?

The M21 Mortar HT is overlapping with the Mortar team and pack howitzer for the USF in both Infantry and Mech Companies.

Literally any infantry with bazookas is good in the M3 Halftrack, especially when using with Combined Arms (the 76mm Sherman comes to mind here).

On the contrary, I would say that Mech Company has more synergy than Armor Company.

What are Assault Engineers exactly? Are they elite infantry? Are they close combat infantry? Are they assault infantry?

What's their synergy with the rest of the commander? Vehicle crews can already repair their own vehicles so their repair ability is pretty useless, REs can already build what they can and even better, so can Rifles along with Riflemen Field Defenses and so forth. Their only real unique ability is that to deploy demo charges and that they're armed with M3 Grease Guns, that's about it.

Elite Crews are useless and I still consider them as such so I see no synergy here.

The M10 is overlapping with the M36 Jackson so there's no other reason to get it right now other than being cheaper and a bit faster.

The 105 Sherman used to overlap with the regular Sherman using HE rounds, not anymore in the preview.

And the 240mm Arty is just the Ost railway arty so nothing to say here.

If we're going by the name alone the only really "armor" themed things here are the Elite Crews and tanks, that's about it.

Mech Company has more "Armor" in it than actual Armor Company.

True bur now take for example Tiger/g43/stuka loiter, Elephant/stuka bombing, Puma/Command PzIV and so on...

The problem is usually found in Soviet/Ostheer commanders, EFA commanders have mostly unique abilities that are more balanced.

The abilities available to a commander should be of about the power in total value.

But it also doesn't help that Relic at one point decided that EFA armies needed 20 commanders each for the moneys. IMO we should just basically forget about half of those and focus on the remainder, so every army ends up with about 5-7 commanders that are viable (maybe not meta but good enough to use for personal preference anyway). Like OKW currently is. That's more than enough.

And I honestly wouldn't mind giving all viable commanders only good abilities and not a balanced loadout, so choosing a commander actually feels like a game-changing specialization (like it was in CoH1) instead of being a minor supplement to your base army. As long as all commanders are like this, it would be fairly balanced.

I remember the good old days where a doctrine like Blitzkrieg came with ALL the goodies. Stormtroopers, StuHs, Tigers, Assault Grenades, Blitzkrieg and Resource Blitz. Playing with all the doctrines in CoH1 basically felt like playing a different army every time. It was more fun than CoH2's commanders that you choose for 2-3 abilites while the remaining abilities are trash.

What?

The M21 Mortar HT is overlapping with the Mortar team and pack howitzer for the USF in both Infantry and Mech Companies.

Literally any infantry with bazookas is good in the M3 Halftrack, especially when using with Combined Arms (the 76mm Sherman comes to mind here).

On the contrary, I would say that Mech Company has more synergy than Armor Company.

What are Assault Engineers exactly? Are they elite infantry? Are they close combat infantry? Are they assault infantry?

What's their synergy with the rest of the commander? Vehicle crews can already repair their own vehicles so their repair ability is pretty useless, REs can already build what they can and even better, so can Rifles along with Riflemen Field Defenses and so forth. Their only real unique ability is that to deploy demo charges and that they're armed with M3 Grease Guns, that's about it.

Elite Crews are useless and I still consider them as such so I see no synergy here.

The M10 is overlapping with the M36 Jackson so there's no other reason to get it right now other than being cheaper and a bit faster.

The 105 Sherman used to overlap with the regular Sherman using HE rounds, not anymore in the preview.

And the 240mm Arty is just the Ost railway arty so nothing to say here.

If we're going by the name alone the only really "armor" themed things here are the Elite Crews and tanks, that's about it.

Mech Company has more "Armor" in it than actual Armor Company.

Mech company is good for trolling, otherwise there is nothing interesting competitivaly speaking in it. Commanders need to be simple and give simple tools and advantages on their own.

Armor commander is still dumbed by the Bulldozer imo.

Why do Cav riflemen get smoke AND snares? Name a CQC inf that gets snares other than this. It's bad enough that they get smoke. And the fact that now only two USF docs have no doctrinal inf when their mainline riflemen are already very good at everything.

Why do Cav riflemen get smoke AND snares? Name a CQC inf that gets snares other than this. It's bad enough that they get smoke. And the fact that now only two USF docs have no doctrinal inf when their mainline riflemen are already very good at everything.

Ppsh cons.

Also, rangers and thompsons paras are better then cav rifles, you survived that, you'll survive cav rifles.

The one thing I find funny about cav rifles is that they have rifle smoke but no rifles XD

Meanwhile normal riflemen have rifles and no rifle smoke.

It looks like we need to thank people for bringing up KV-2, because Urban doctrine seems to be getting one after all.

*Maybe*

P.S Regarding Cavmen and their sticky satchel, I know this is outside of scope BUT, is there any chance Recon Paratrooper squad with super-bazookas get gets this sticky satchel too?

It fits them more than it fits cavmen consdering you sacrifice an elite squad for this

The one thing I find funny about cav rifles is that they have rifle smoke but no rifles XD

Meanwhile normal riflemen have rifles and no rifle smoke.

I might make a shitty meme about it, if the unit really reaches the live servers.

"Calvary Riflemen."
Armed with SMGs."