Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

i don't get why Stug E has been buffed even more.
Have you guys tested that thing? it's just insane imo ( and it's quite good even in the current patch tbh)
Right now it's like a very cheap version of the ISU.
In my opinion it needs an increase in cost and CP requirement if you want to keep it as it is right now

P.S. quick question: these commanders are the final ones for the revamp or it's possible to make suggestions for others?

The thing with M42 its not "just" useless. It overlaps with ZiS and is inferior to it if you go T2. It also overlaps with PTRS Penals if you go T1 and is inferior to them when they are reinforced by Field HQ

Basically no matter which path you choose in teching you got better unit than M42, there is no real point in buffing it either because it will just overlap with Zis (again).
There might have been time when it was useful - when Penals didnt have PTRS, but now that thing has simply no point

If balance team flat out refuses to give this commander a medium tank than at very least they can replace this awful thing with DShK. Because DShK can do the exact same thing M42 does - countering light vehicles on top of being HMG

I like the changes to Elite Armor, that's shaping up to be a good commander. Emergency Repairs now seems to be a nice cost-effective ability to get your tanks back into battle faster.

The extra changes to the Panzer Commander seem make it worth getting over the pintle mounted MG now. Just one request: could you consider making it available to the Jagdpanzer IV? It would synergyse well with its role. Maybe disable the artillery call-in though to prevent it from gaining AI power.


Now the only thing that's left is the rather useless Signal Relay ability. I think what would absolutely bump this commander into meta is replacing it with Panzer Tactician smoke. Although this might be too much (making tanks OP) in combination with HEAT shells, repairs and the Panzer Commander. It would however absolutely solidify armor play (in accordance with the doctrine's theme).


Also now that the Sturmtiger is being adjusted - could you consider removing its rocket's collision with medium cover objects? It's super annoying to micro your Sturmtiger out of danger, manually reload it, finally have the rocket available again, line up the perfect shot, just to see it hit a small fence or crate along the way and detonate prematurely. I don't think boxes or fences should be able to stop a 376KG projectile.

Regarding M-42, given its low damage and not a singular valid reason to ever get more then 1 due to cost inefficiency vs ZiS-3, could it be given 100-110 far penetration?

That's no threat to any kind of heavy armor, but 2 could actually threaten ost P4.

Another thing to remember is 2 of them cost more then ZiS-3 and have much more pop cap, making them still a worthless choice as even if you have to backtech to T2 for ZiS, you'll open yourself 2 more units if you need them and still will pay only 100 more mp for zis+t2 then a pair of these.

I am a bit worried about all the merges of abilities just to make revamped commanders stronger some are pretty reasonable and justified like the conscript ppsh+hit the ground or ostheers trenches cover and tank traps for infantry (similar to vcoh rifleman defenses).
But my problems are with merges or straight up better slots that started with the tankhunters atgun + tank camouflage that is straight up better then atgun camouflage although i can understand that change as two of the other commanders feature soviets heavy tanks namely the isu152 and the is2 that might be pretty strong with first strike buffs.
The next problem i see lies in the m21 mortarhalftrack that has now been added to mechanized company as a part of the mechanized group that now consists of the WC51 dodge truck the m3 halftrack and the m21 mortar halftrack. This last point completely overshadows the infantry company that is now only better if it turns to lategame slugfests where the priest and the offmap artillery strike are needed, or allows some early game defensive plays with some mines or sandbags while mechanized company allows a whole lot of options like the combined arms that might be used in dire need to push back assaults and a lot of teching options with redraw and refit + endless light and medium vehicles.

My last point which doesn't fit the point of merging slots but also consists of commander slots that seem unbalanced is the churchill crocodile as it exists in 2 different versions one coming at 12 cps for 600 mp 180 fuel (which seems a bit early or cheap for a better version of the churchill which costs 490 mp 160 fuel and has only better hp) and the other one coming with a flare at 13 cp for the price of 640 mp 230 fuel.

As a conclusion i would like to see some consistency between the crocodiles and some solution for the mechanized groups and m21s maybe just add the dodge truck and m3 halftrack to the infantry company and allow them some more early game options aswell.

i don't get why Stug E has been buffed even more.

That it got buff is strange, I don't get it why M8A1 Howitzer don't get nerfed instead. Too fast shell, to much accuracy and kill-potential. Better give it same weapon as leIG18 to differentiate bouth, the M8A1 Howitzer and M1 75mm Pack Howitzer.

The thing with M42 its not "just" useless. It overlaps with ZiS and is inferior to it if you go T2. It also overlaps with PTRS Penals if you go T1 and is inferior to them when they are reinforced by Field HQ

I would still like to see it renamed as 3,7-cm-PaK 36 as a speacial unit for Ostheer. The gunes looked nearly the same and would fit better in Ostheer.

Related to OKW-Commanders:

Elite Armor:
Panzer Commander seems very legit now:
- Sight bonus
- Faster Arty
- and 10% better gun accuracy
AND: You can upgrade your Tanks way earlier, at CP5
Great changes!

Overwatch:
- First strike bonus for Jaegers, the unit gets more attractive now.

Btw: Its very cool to see that you implemented some ideas of the community (for example first strike bonus).Keep going on your first class job!

Alright so after testing out the even more improved Mech Company -

As much as I love the mini Army this commander has become it probably is a bit too much.

What I suggest is:

Leave the WC-51 as a call in unit instead of it being in the HQ.
Combine Cav Rifles and the M3 to make a combat group again.
Keep the M21 Mortar Halftrack in the place of Redraw and Refit.
Keep Combined Arms.

The 76mm Sherman needs to be fixed or replaced by an E8, as much as I love it it's simply broken and very abusable right now, and as much as Vipper's idea of replacing it with the M10 makes sense Combined Arms's potential would be largely wasted on a combination of Cav Rifles in M3 HTs and M10s in my opinion.

As far as the UKF goes -

As someone else already said, it's probably a good idea to also give a mortar to Royal Artillery in the place of Early Warning, either a mobile mortar section or the M21 Mortar Halftrack from the USF. As I said it's a 30 munition max hax ability in a doctrine already filled with munition based abilities plus, at least one of your teammates will be able to provide Recon somehow in team games, in which this commander will probably be chosen more often than not anyhow.

Related to Tac Support, I would like to offer my services of photo editing and create or at least edit the Air Supply Operation's icon and replace the MG icon with a Mortar one, and replace the Forward Artillery post's icon to also include the Forward Assembly, somehow.

I just sadly need somebody to provide me with the icons since I have never actually extracted an SGA file so I have no idea how to do it, or at least have forgotten how to do it.

Edit: Suggestion for Armor Company - if the M10 and 105 Sherman are kept in the doctrine they can be combined, in the same manner as Mech Company's Reserve Armor, to free up a slot for something like the M8 Greyhound which can be tweaked a little to make it worthwhile which would also help out Recon Company a bit I guess. Call it nostalgia but I think this unit could see the light of day a bit more than currently.

Edit2: I also noticed that my Ambulance instantly vanished when it was locked down and I used Redraw and Refit (for the first time in my life) on it so it's probably worth a look lol.

1. Mech company - it's really MP intensive commander. You simply won't afford adding all of this units call in stuff - this gives a lot of tactical possibities how you gonna play with it. Some of them really hard to use (like mark target or a barrage from WC51 - it's like a reward for keeping in alive into late game)

2. Armor Company - if you wanna combine m10 and buldozer you should make it both buildable in t3. Greyhound is already in recon company and it's one of key reasons to pick that commander. Adding it to armor company would possibly kill already rarely see Recon C.

3. NKVD - abilities cannot cost 0 ammo in faction that already float ammo. Even symbolic price will be good.

4. IF you say Mech company has a lot of stuff inside look at british tactical support. Wow, so many ammo ablities. Croc imo is too much (you drop 2 x AT and mortar for 200mp and 150ammo and with Croc you make a uncrossable wall) - maybe consider adding a weaker call in stuff like m10 or sherman 75mm (popular around british forces).

5. Mortar in Royal artylery regiment - Early warning is a good usefull ability, i am 100% sure that mobile mortar team will be added in new december commanders.

6. ambulance bug is a thing

BTW great idea with a mortar in tactical regiment A_Soldier

@Stark you might want to play with current soviets, not the ones from 2 years ago. Currently soviets are quite muni heavy, they simply have no weapon upgrade for mainline infantry.

1. Mech company - it's really MP intensive commander. You simply won't afford adding all of this units call in stuff - this gives a lot of tactical possibities how you gonna play with it. Some of them really hard to use (like mark target or a barrage from WC51 - it's like a reward for keeping in alive into late game)

2. Armor Company - if you wanna combine m10 and buldozer you should make it both buildable in t3. Greyhound is already in recon company and it's one of key reasons to pick that commander. Adding it to armor company would possibly kill already rarely see Recon C.

3. NKVD - abilities cannot cost 0 ammo in faction that already float ammo. Even symbolic price will be good.

4. IF you say Mech company has a lot of stuff inside look at british tactical support. Wow, so many ammo ablities. Croc imo is too much (you drop 2 x AT and mortar for 200mp and 150ammo and with Croc you make a uncrossable wall) - maybe consider adding a weaker call in stuff like m10 or sherman 75mm (popular around british forces).

5. Mortar in Royal artylery regiment - Early warning is a good usefull ability, i am 100% sure that mobile mortar team will be added in new december commanders.

6. ambulance bug is a thing

BTW great idea with a mortar in tactical regiment A_Soldier

1. Yeah I mean the point is to have choices, but then again as someone else said they got enough options for 2 commanders now lol, I even joked that it was it's own separate Army yesterday in the matches I tested the commander out.

2. Again, yeah, they would both be unlocked by the Major and again, it would free up a slot to be used for something else, just throwing it out there, they were even bundled in Baker Company in Ardennes Assault but I always preferred the M10s since Cav Rifles were lacking AT.

To add to the point about the M8 Greyhound, so I'm a bit confused here since I have never used Recon or the M8 because I don't even think I own the commander but somebody else said that it was underwhelming, while you're here saying that it's all people choose Recon for, so my question is, what is it exactly? I would like to see more of it but I would of course not use it if it's not worth it, but if it really is the only thing that people choose Recon for then I suppose it's a bad idea, I don't really know. Like I said it's mostly nostalgia speaking on my part for it.

3. I never said anything about the Soviets, hell I haven't even tested them since I don't even play them, well apart from their T34/85 with vehicle repair commanders (ie Armored Assault and Motor Guards Rifle or whatever it was called with the Guards). Altho I had an idea of the commissar having a retreat point, like the USF Major, but I guess that would be a bt ironic lol.

4. I sadly haven't had the time to test out the new Tac Support, but even so going by what you have said, back in the UKF Alpha I suggested the M10 Achilles be added which was basically the M10 Wolverine but with the Firefly's 17 pounder gun mounted, it probably wouldn't take so much effort and time on Relic's part to make it but hey, I'm just suggesting. As for the M4A4, yes I suggested it as well in my New Commander Concepts topic if you read that, again part of the American Lend-Lease commander for the British that also included an M3A1 Scout Car (from the Soviets), air dropped supplies (from where the mortar for Brits idea came from), M3 HT that dropped BARs and bazookas like the Special Weapons HT and even the M5 Stuart. But I suppose that just the M10 would also be a possibility to add.

In reality the British used a lot of US vehicles so we have a lot to work with, around 70 or more % of the Lend-Lease contract we had went to them anyhow, the Soviets only received around 30, which was a lot of trucks, food and 7000 tanks if I'm not mistaken, Shermans, M3 Lees, Stuarts, you name it. While the British gave them some 3000 tanks in the form of the Churchill, Valentine (up-armored and further improved by the Soviets to adapt to the Eastern Front) and so forth.

5. I agree, I am sure that the new commander for the British will have a mobile mortar team however, right now options are limited and I would say that a mortar would also fit in Royal Artillery until the new commander arrives because I am not sure if there will be another revamp patch because of the end of the "5 year plan". So it's better to take the opportunity while it's still here rather than regretting it later, that's my opinion at least, I could be completely wrong of course.

6. Yes.

And yeah thanks again.

Valentine
-CP requirement from 6 to 5
-Observation now increases sight by 50%; no longer scans for units in the FOW and does not disable movement.

Valentine this solution was waiting for many people, I hope that something similar is done with the HTinfrared giving it the ability to detect of the Kubel but with 100 range.

Valentine/HTinfrared with these changes will make the game more pleasant.

I think the Valentine should get a small base sight range increase. Atm even with recon mode + vet 1, the sight is pretty underwhelming.

Tho with sight range increase I dont mean the broken af level of vet 3 T70 recon mode


Update

Oh and there is a little bug as well: this little white radar thingy which belongs to Valentine recon mode, remains even if you move the Valentine away (but it disappears if you disable recon mode).



Not the end of the world, not a high priority bug. But I guess it's the best to remove the radar animation if possible

Oh and the forward observation post still displays this white symbol on the mini-map (can be seen right on the middle territory point where a VP is located usually) for some reason

One possible concern on the Cav Rifles: they're frontline infantry with smoke and snares. Wasn't smoke removed from Rifles because it was a problem?

That, and the AT satchels current have a normal snare range on them.



That's the range and damage on the AT satchel at the moment.

Valentine this solution was waiting for many people, I hope that something similar is done with the HTinfrared giving it the ability to detect of the Kubel but with 100 range.

Valentine/HTinfrared with these changes will make the game more pleasant.

+1

One possible concern on the Cav Rifles: they're frontline infantry with smoke and snares. Wasn't smoke removed from Rifles because it was a problem?

That, and the AT satchels current have a normal snare range on them.



That's the range and damage on the AT satchel at the moment.

They're a close quarter combat (CQC) unit, so they need the smoke, like Shocks.

However I imagined them to be either solely an AI unit (completely outfitted with Thomsons) or have a shorter range "sticky grenade" for use as an AT snare, similar to the one in CoH, or the satchel is already that? I don't really know.

1. Yeah I mean the point is to have choices, but then again as someone else said they got enough options for 2 commanders now lol, I even joked that it was it's own separate Army yesterday in the matches I tested the commander out.

So honestly, thats what I intended for when I proposed the change (now dubbed the "super bundle") to the group.

Current patch mech felt like just a bunch of callins to me, and thats something I didnt think really felt satisfying. In my pitch, I said something to the effect of "Mech is basically a 'I get a bunch of callins' commander. Mech should be transformative and make you feel like youre actually playing a truly mechanized faction with vehicles being a regular part of your army."
(That last part is also why I suggested they be built instead of called in. In my opinion, callins feel "click and forget," while units built out of structures feel like theyre a part of your unit roster.)

I also said that mech gives you a bunch of callins without giving you the abilities or the space to make them shine, which is a reason why we went towards refuel and refit and combined arms.

All of that said, I dont personally believe that having this many abilities is an issue in itself. However, if having this many abilities or units proves to be a balance issue or the sheer volume is overwhelming, then thats definitely something we need to look at.
(A tangent on this point: whether you consider mark, 155mm, or almost anything else separate abilities or not is subjective. Technically the command panther is a command panther AND mark target. Panzer commander is a pintle slot upgrade AND an artillery callin. Officers are a unit AND smoke/artillery/buffs. All of this is much like the wc51 is a vehicle and mark and 155mm.)

There was a lot of "me" and "I thought" in this post, but thats probably because I was the most active in proposing changes to this commander, especially early on in deciding the direction.

They're a close quarter combat (CQC) unit, so they need the smoke, like Shocks.

However I imagine them to be either solely an AI unit (completely outfitted with Thomsons) or have a shorter range "sticky grenade" for use as an AT snare, similar to the one in CoH, or the satchel is already that? I don't really know.

I don't think they need smoke to be a CQC unit: Rangers and Thompson Paras don't and they're amongst the best. However, I do think the smoke's good for their role: they're vehicle support infantry and the ability to blind AT guns definitely helps with that.

I can see the difficulty in designing Cav Rifles: make them too weak a CQC unit and they don't get used, make them too good and they'll go off to the flanks to wipe squads instead of supporting vehicles.

What if they removed Combined Arms as a Commander ability and made it a passive on the Cavalry Riflemen? Have them about Assault Engineer effective on their own, but they get buffed up to Thompson Paratrooper performance with a vehicle nearby?

That gives you very efficient CQC infantry but only when fighting alongside a vehicle.

You also keep the highly thematic Combined Arms effect but escape the myriad balance problems of having it apply to anything.

Prune Refit ability leave mechanized with

>Dodge callin
>M3/M21 buildable halftracks
>Cavalry riflemen
>Combined Arms
>76mm Sherman/Dozer upgrade

I don't think they need smoke to be a CQC unit: Rangers and Thompson Paras don't and they're amongst the best. However, I do think the smoke's good for their role: they're vehicle support infantry and the ability to blind AT guns definitely helps with that.

I can see the difficulty in designing Cav Rifles: make them too weak a CQC unit and they don't get used, make them too good and they'll go off to the flanks to wipe squads instead of supporting vehicles.

What if they removed Combined Arms as a Commander ability and made it a passive on the Cavalry Riflemen? Have them about Assault Engineer effective on their own, but they get buffed up to Thompson Paratrooper performance with a vehicle nearby?

That gives you very efficient CQC infantry but only when fighting alongside a vehicle.

You also keep the highly thematic Combined Arms effect but escape the myriad balance problems of having it apply to anything.

So what you're suggesting is for them to have a sorf Osttruppen/IS type of bonus but instead of cover, they get it when they're around vehicles automatically?

Yeah that could work I suppose, altho vehicles will not be benefitting from it anymore (or will they?) so there's that.

But then again the probably most common question besides will it be balanced springs up, how will the free slot be used then? M8 Greyhound I am getting that probably isn't an option, they already have a Halftrack so adding the M5 is no go as well, the M3A1 Scout Car from the Soviets? It would basically be an even better clown car than the WC51 but there would be a huge overlap probably.

So I think we have exhausted the light vehicle call ins, what about a munition based ability then?

Baker Company in AA had the M1919A6, maybe that could fill the slot? Apart from that there is already Arty on the WC51 so that's out of the question too.

So honestly, thats what I intended for when I proposed the change (now dubbed the "super bundle") to the group.

Current patch mech felt like just a bunch of callins to me, and thats something I didnt think really felt satisfying. In my pitch, I said something to the effect of "Mech is basically a 'I get a bunch of callins' commander. Mech should be transformative and make you feel like youre actually playing a truly mechanized faction with vehicles being a regular part of your army."
(That last part is also why I suggested they be built instead of called in. In my opinion, callins feel "click and forget," while units built out of structures feel like theyre a part of your unit roster.)

I also said that mech gives you a bunch of callins without giving you the abilities or the space to make them shine, which is a reason why we went towards refuel and refit and combined arms.

All of that said, I dont personally believe that having this many abilities is an issue in itself. However, if having this many abilities or units proves to be a balance issue or the sheer volume is overwhelming, then thats definitely something we need to look at.
(A tangent on this point: whether you consider mark, 155mm, or almost anything else separate abilities or not is subjective. Technically the command panther is a command panther AND mark target. Panzer commander is a pintle slot upgrade AND an artillery callin. Officers are a unit AND smoke/artillery/buffs. All of this is much like the wc51 is a vehicle and mark and 155mm.)

There was a lot of "me" and "I thought" in this post, but thats probably because I was the most active in proposing changes to this commander, especially early on in deciding the direction.

I can see your point now I suppose, I never thought about basically having a US "Panzer Elite" so to speak, especially all in one doctrine.

What I wanted, or at least imagined, in general was Baker Company from the Ardennes Assault campaign in Multiplayer really, that's all.

It might be just me but I really liked the feeling of you being some sort of small outfit with just an attached mechanized company to you, instead of being a fully mechanized force, you had guys that had to walk and fight on foot but most you find Halftracks for but there just weren't enough to go around.

Apart from versatility it also probably a lot of mobility, saved time, and time was paid in blood as Patton said, that's also the reason why I vouched for Cav Rifles for such a long time, I could only hope that Panzergrenadiers would receive such a treatment for the Ost/OKW as well.