SPs are too fast to deploy, making OKWs almost unstoppale in first infantry contact, especially in 3v3 and 4v4 where u can not aviod a early fight against OKWs. When the first 2 SPs arrives the combat zone, allies have nearly nothing to stop them, especially for USF (1 RM and 1 RE don't stand a chance to win a fight against 2 SPs). Worse more, the overall low cost for OKW units, making it possible for OKW players to reform his troops even the first assualt becomes a disaster due to faulty commands.
OKWs infantries are too cheap for their performance, making OKWs too powerful in early combat and leaving OKW players much room for mistakes.
VGs(250mp or 250MP+60MU) are capable to win a fight against RMs(280mp or 280MP+60MU) and 4-men-squad infantry section(280mp)
SPs cost 300MP and fast to deploy now.
Obers cost only 340MP, cheaper than any allies elite infantry.(Guards cost 360MP, Rangers cost 400MP!)
Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy
23 Aug 2018, 15:37 PM
#1
Posts: 130
23 Aug 2018, 16:41 PM
#2
Posts: 33
So basically VG's are broke because they can win a fight? I do hate it when things like that slip through balance, i forgot Axis infantry should always lose.
Also Sp's aren't cheap, you're just not as tight on resources in bigger team games so it just seems that way. But with correct micro (like any engagement) they wont auto win, if they get close to you without losing models you're doing it wrong friend.
Also Sp's aren't cheap, you're just not as tight on resources in bigger team games so it just seems that way. But with correct micro (like any engagement) they wont auto win, if they get close to you without losing models you're doing it wrong friend.
23 Aug 2018, 18:30 PM
#3
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
VG only win under certain circumstances, namely being at max range in green cover when Allied infantry has to charge. They lose in most other scenarios.
Sturmpioneers are good early game but they do not scale at all (bad veterancy bonusses and too high requirements) and they are a manpower sink to reinforce.
Obers are cheap but they're also the only 4-men elite infantry and they are very vulnerable to wipes because of this.
Sturmpioneers are good early game but they do not scale at all (bad veterancy bonusses and too high requirements) and they are a manpower sink to reinforce.
Obers are cheap but they're also the only 4-men elite infantry and they are very vulnerable to wipes because of this.
23 Aug 2018, 19:28 PM
#4
Posts: 911
They only time SP are good is the first engagement when they can ambush the foe or when they advance on a moving target. Otherwise they can just be focused down before they do much damage.
Considering their high cost and the risk involved in losing OKWs source of healing (that doesn't cost 50 fuel to unlock) their strength is justified.
Oh and volks loose most engagements on a 1v1 basis even when they have a STGs (compared to a single bar or lmg)
Oh and others are cheap because they come in so late (compared to guards or rangers), you would only be justified to complain if they could be built in t1.
Also you complain that a cheap unit, volks are capable of fighting more expensive units, yet also complain that 2x strums (600mp) can beat a rm and RE (500 or so) hypocracy much?
Considering their high cost and the risk involved in losing OKWs source of healing (that doesn't cost 50 fuel to unlock) their strength is justified.
Oh and volks loose most engagements on a 1v1 basis even when they have a STGs (compared to a single bar or lmg)
Oh and others are cheap because they come in so late (compared to guards or rangers), you would only be justified to complain if they could be built in t1.
Also you complain that a cheap unit, volks are capable of fighting more expensive units, yet also complain that 2x strums (600mp) can beat a rm and RE (500 or so) hypocracy much?
Imagine my playercard is here
23 Aug 2018, 19:31 PM
#5
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
There is not much you can do as USF vs OKW in larger teamgames I'm afraid, since teamgames allow players to get away with things you could punish in 1vs1, in theory at least since OKW has the upper hand vs USF through the game there too.
23 Aug 2018, 20:54 PM
#6
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Have you tried working with your teammate? If OKW is bullying you currently in teamgames you're doing something wrong. You say you get rushed by 2x sturms, but where is your teammate with IS, or cons, or rifles. Of course you're going to lose vs 2x charging sturms against an RE and a rifle.
23 Aug 2018, 22:22 PM
#7
Posts: 102
Have you tried working with your teammate? If OKW is bullying you currently in teamgames you're doing something wrong. You say you get rushed by 2x sturms, but where is your teammate with IS, or cons, or rifles. Of course you're going to lose vs 2x charging sturms against an RE and a rifle.
This doesnt make sense to me Shadowlink. OKW start with x1 SP and USF start with x1 RE. The OKW player builds a 2nd SP and the USF player builds a RM. Thats x2 SPs vrs x1 RE and x1 RM in a 1v1 vacuum.
The biggest problem is some of the larger team game maps have narrow lanes with very predictable retreat paths and if a SP gets on your retreat path early game it can be gg in the first few minutes.
No starting unit should have that much wipe potential early game, its very bad design.
I guess nothing will ever change now as COH2 is so old but imo the kubel should of been OKWs starting unit.
23 Aug 2018, 22:44 PM
#8
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Have you tried working with your teammate? If OKW is bullying you currently in teamgames you're doing something wrong. You say you get rushed by 2x sturms, but where is your teammate with IS, or cons, or rifles. Of course you're going to lose vs 2x charging sturms against an RE and a rifle.
Welp but he is complaining about the first engagement, on which OKW right now have the tools to bully any faction.
When a faction which has the highest mp start to begin with (initial mp unit cost + spare mp), doesn't waste time building early on, starts with the 2nd strongest unit in the game and has the fastest unit follow up (Volk/Kubel), there's not much you can do on the FIRST ENGAGEMENT. That has been one of OKW strongest point since forever with 2 exceptions. Been scared of pushing too forward against a clowncar flamer when they had no snare and UKF release.
Unless the map has a glaring "imba" house or spawn position, you are not supposed to defeat SP rushing you.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
23 Aug 2018, 23:01 PM
#9
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Actually 300 manpower unit should not be available that early and that includes penals.
23 Aug 2018, 23:05 PM
#10
Posts: 808
i think OP is talking about getting hit early on by two OKW players with sturm each, which is why shadow is saying if ther double teaming, where is your team mate?
And doesn't 1x echelon and 1x riflemen come out faster then 2 SP?
And doesn't 1x echelon and 1x riflemen come out faster then 2 SP?
23 Aug 2018, 23:51 PM
#11
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Actually 300 manpower unit should not be available that early and that includes penals.
Kinda.
There's a difference between wasting your CE building T1 and then waiting for Penals to be built (either because you wait mp for after getting a cons or having a worst opening by either going another CE or straight penal) and having a faction with extra mp and a strong unit as a starter.
For either case:
Is OKW opening and first 5 mins push really strong ?
IF so, why not remove or reduce the extra mp they get from the get go and instead smooth it with the cost of SwS trucks ?
Are Penals opening still too strong ?
If so, you could either increase build time of Penals.
i think OP is talking about getting hit early on by two OKW players with sturm each, which is why shadow is saying if ther double teaming, where is your team mate?
And doesn't 1x echelon and 1x riflemen come out faster then 2 SP?
CE is building either T1 or T2.
RE can't hold the ground 1v1 against SP. So 2 RE against 2 SP is an even worst trade.
IS can hold if they find cover, but not as much as before the nerfs (and who is still playing UKF lel).
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Aug 2018, 00:45 AM
#12
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
This doesnt make sense to me Shadowlink. OKW start with x1 SP and USF start with x1 RE. The OKW player builds a 2nd SP and the USF player builds a RM. Thats x2 SPs vrs x1 RE and x1 RM in a 1v1 vacuum.
The biggest problem is some of the larger team game maps have narrow lanes with very predictable retreat paths and if a SP gets on your retreat path early game it can be gg in the first few minutes.
No starting unit should have that much wipe potential early game, its very bad design.
I guess nothing will ever change now as COH2 is so old but imo the kubel should of been OKWs starting unit.
Bold: I don't know build times off the top of my head but i'd say the SP probably has a slower build time than the rifleman.
Don't think he's talking about 1v1 though since OP has a grand total of 7 1v1 games in automatch.
Welp but he is complaining about the first engagement, on which OKW right now have the tools to bully any faction.
When a faction which has the highest mp start to begin with (initial mp unit cost + spare mp), doesn't waste time building early on, starts with the 2nd strongest unit in the game and has the fastest unit follow up (Volk/Kubel), there's not much you can do on the FIRST ENGAGEMENT. That has been one of OKW strongest point since forever with 2 exceptions. Been scared of pushing too forward against a clowncar flamer when they had no snare and UKF release.
Unless the map has a glaring "imba" house or spawn position, you are not supposed to defeat SP rushing you.
SP is only good when they catch you offguard behind blockers. If they charge at you while you entrenched even with RE and rifle vs volks and SP, you can still very well win as long as you focus the sturms. It is a difficult first engagement, but it is never game ending unless the map has something really imbalanced like the old crossroads north wreck.
More importantly though, how could you fix this without completely overhauling the SP unit, the OKW faction, or talking about their lack of AI power lategame?
24 Aug 2018, 02:31 AM
#13
1 Posts: 169
While Sturms may be strong in the early game, they are definitely not nearly as good as you make them out to be unless the map (or area of map) is particularly urban.
I'm not sure where the supposed imbalance is though. Even against 4x OKW I never felt like the early game was unwinnable due to the performance of Sturms and Volks as all Allied factions in team games.
I'm not sure where the supposed imbalance is though. Even against 4x OKW I never felt like the early game was unwinnable due to the performance of Sturms and Volks as all Allied factions in team games.
Pudding.
24 Aug 2018, 02:54 AM
#14
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
More importantly though, how could you fix this without completely overhauling the SP unit, the OKW faction, or talking about their lack of AI power lategame?
Remove/reduce/pass around the extra 100mp they start with. The SwS is a good unit/tech requirement you could reduce mp wise so you would effectively keep the same overall teching cost.
About the SP as a unit, they had been hugely buff in the latest patches but outside of them getting a 5th man or weapon upgrade, they are not gonna be an infantry unit which can compete with main line upgraded infantry. On top of having plenty of roles.
I mean, this were the last year December changes:
Build time from 40 to 28
Reinforce time from 10 to 7
Population from 9 to 8
Repair speed from 3 to 2
Minesweeper upgrade bonus to repair rate from +1 to +25% repair rate
Panzerschreck cost from 90 to 70
Panzerschreck upgrade no longer requires trucks to be setup
Veterancy requirements reduced to 580/1160/2320/2900/3770
Veterancy 4 15% weapon accuracy and -23% received accuracy removed.
Veternacy 5 40% accuracy modifier moved to veterancy 4
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
24 Aug 2018, 07:25 AM
#15
Posts: 810
switch starting unit to volk
SP is fine unit but problem is it given to free
SP is fine unit but problem is it given to free
24 Aug 2018, 07:45 AM
#16
Posts: 98
One thing that makes the first encounters difficult to judge is the very RNG dependent nature of infantry rifles. Sometimes they can drop a model in the first volley, sometimes they do bugger all damage before the SP manages to close the distance.
SP with their STG44 however are guaranteed to absolutely rape at close range, no uncertainty there.
They can also threaten garrisons if they can find a sweat spot covered by only one or two windows.
Cheap line inf and deadly elite inf make a for a powerful early game combo, forcing allies to be very careful about how they go about the early game encounter and if caught out of position, its just tickets for them.
SP early game just add options or tactics that the allies don't have access too for some time.
Now OKW originally was meant to be resource starved faction and so started with SP so that they could 'break through' and establish their pocket. This is not the current OKW so I imagine they could manage just fine with a kubel or volks starting unit.
SP with their STG44 however are guaranteed to absolutely rape at close range, no uncertainty there.
They can also threaten garrisons if they can find a sweat spot covered by only one or two windows.
Cheap line inf and deadly elite inf make a for a powerful early game combo, forcing allies to be very careful about how they go about the early game encounter and if caught out of position, its just tickets for them.
SP early game just add options or tactics that the allies don't have access too for some time.
Now OKW originally was meant to be resource starved faction and so started with SP so that they could 'break through' and establish their pocket. This is not the current OKW so I imagine they could manage just fine with a kubel or volks starting unit.
Please bear in mind that I only play team game modes.
24 Aug 2018, 10:17 AM
#17
Posts: 503 | Subs: 1
A Kubel as starting unit would be atrocious. Volks as a starting unit would be a more reasonable compromise. Otherwise reworking the SP to become cheaper but less effective in combat could also work.
24 Aug 2018, 10:55 AM
#18
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
Kinda.
There's a difference between wasting your CE building T1 and then waiting for Penals to be built (either because you wait mp for after getting a cons or having a worst opening by either going another CE or straight penal) and having a faction with extra mp and a strong unit as a starter.
For either case:
Is OKW opening and first 5 mins push really strong ?
IF so, why not remove or reduce the extra mp they get from the get go and instead smooth it with the cost of SwS trucks ?
Are Penals opening still too strong ?
If so, you could either increase build time of Penals.
....
Yes there a difference between Penal and SP. But the fact remain that these unit hit too hard and are too expensive for their time frame. These unit do so much damage and the fact that early engagements have a big impact magnifies the affects and increases rng while reducing tactical play.
Increasing time to build is a solution but imo there better ones:
replace SP with VG as starting unit
or/and
reduce cost and pop of SP to 260-280 replace 2 ST with MP40 allow then to upgrade to 2 more for mu
Penals reduce cost to 280-260 replace 4-6 SVT (fix curve so that they perform optimum at mid range) with mosin offer upgrade for mu
24 Aug 2018, 10:58 AM
#19
Posts: 5279
I hate the "sturms are only good if they ambush and trash if they have to charge" which is true when facing proper infantry but the starting match up isn't against proper infantry, it's against RE and CE that's the issue (as said Tommy's can hold but who plays UKF) RE couldn't stop sturms charging across an open field and CE couldn't stop sturms if they were charging across neg cover.
#stalinwept
24 Aug 2018, 13:12 PM
#20
Posts: 223
How about... not changing anything because Sturms are already balanced. I know insane right? OKW late game is honestly trash compared to UKF(as always) and improved USF late game.
Double Sturms are so easily punished by simply letting them come to you, retreat once they come too close and coming back with weapon upgrades/HMGs. 1v1 double sturm build is ggez lose for OKW.
Double Sturms are so easily punished by simply letting them come to you, retreat once they come too close and coming back with weapon upgrades/HMGs. 1v1 double sturm build is ggez lose for OKW.
Fail of War 3 
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