Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy

If the changelog is correct this is the opening for all factions:

SU: CE + 350mp
OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF)
USF: RET + 400mp
OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS)
UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1)

There used to be universal formula for starting MP, which was 500mp minus starter unit cost, however with time both axis armies and brits got an extra.

Ost got extra, because reasons.

OKW got extra because they were not able to instantly build volks due to initial 320mp spio cost.

And UKF I believe always had extra to build 2nd squad from get go, they got it at least as long as I can remember.

There used to be universal formula for starting MP, which was 500mp minus starter unit cost, however with time both axis armies and brits got an extra.

Ost got extra, because reasons.

OKW got extra because they were not able to instantly build volks due to initial 320mp spio cost.

And UKF I believe always had extra to build 2nd squad from get go, they got it at least as long as I can remember.

Nope. That was without the engineer taken into account. It was close to 500 but reduced before WFA.

OH: because basically USF was released and it was roflstomping them 1v1 (also because several other reasons), they had several changes applied. MG42 T0, Pio buffs and an extra mp.

OKW: had 240mp, but they received a SwS which you could push with (not counting the crush era) and other nasty things like Kubeljesus. Volks were 235.
During the rework, OKW was play tested i think with 240mp and 250mp Volks and later on they gave them 340mp to start with.

UKF: got extra because 1v1 they were bad and they had poor early game presence. 290>340

This has already been discussed. The problem (or the lack of experience that causes the problem) is that OKW has a leg up on USF for the first 5 minutes. Why just USF? Because sections will beat volks at long range cover fights and cons can roughly match volks and are cheap as volks and these 2 allied factions have easy access to an mg. In a mid to long range engagement, riflemen do not have much of an advantage (or not at all) vs volks despite costing 30mp more. Sturm dominate RE at all ranges, and hence the RE is a liability early game relegated to capping/building duties only if they're alone. The fact that OKW has units which can all stand their ground vs USF if properly microed (and with a possible kubel) it means that OKW can have better map control than USF early game. After USF gets capt/lt, the tide changes as the free squad and light vehicles arrive. USF beats OKW from 5-20 min mark. Ignorant USF players think that they can kick the teeth in on Ost players from the very start of the game, how come they can't do that vs OKW players? Because USF has an inherent advantage over Ost due to the fact that riflemen have twice the dps of grens close range despite costing only 40mp more and more importantly can afford to close the gap vs grens even ones behind sandbags whereas volks with their extra man will punish such aggressive moves. The cost efficiency is flipped as riflemen vs volk is an even match (averaging engagments at all ranges) despite rifle costing 30mp more. So for every unit USF produces, they're losing 30mp in efficiency. Riflemen are worth their initial cost after getting high vet and/or upgrades, so USf needs to play defensive vs OKW for the first 5 min making sure that they avoid combat with OKW, figuring out which side of the map OKW is focusing on and avoid that side of the map. In teamgames, your going to need allow OKW to cap a bit more of the map since you can't "avoid" combat. Sandbags are very helpful to set up advantageous positions. Bait OKW to overextend, after they retreat, you can cap. So I'm gonna repeat again:

USF BEATS OKW FROM 5-20 MIN MARK. KNOW WHEN TO BE AGGRESSIVE.

B I G W A L L O F T E X T

USF BEATS OKW FROM 5-20 MIN MARK. KNOW WHEN TO BE AGGRESSIVE.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't neccesarily agree with everything said, but the frame of what I think is right is there.

Lemme just save the USF bois some time and form their counter argument which they've used for the last 6-9 months. "But how can I beat OKW if they apply so much pressure and win by 5 minutes and blob my cutoff?"

My answer: I don't know how did USF NOT win when they were the early game faction and OKW was the late game oriented faction 2 years ago? It's because you CANNOT win in 5 minutes. VPs guarantee that.

I dunno i'm tired...

Now don't get me wrong, I don't neccesarily agree with everything said, but the frame of what I think is right is there.

Lemme just save the USF bois some time and form their counter argument which they've used for the last 6-9 months. "But how can I beat OKW if they apply so much pressure and win by 5 minutes and blob my cutoff?"

My answer: I don't know how did USF NOT win when they were the early game faction and OKW was the late game oriented faction 2 years ago? It's because you CANNOT win in 5 minutes. VPs guarantee that.

I dunno i'm tired...

I don't know why you keep focusing on this, the problem isn't that OKW beat USF for the 5 first minutes, it is that USF is design to beat their opponent during that time or they lose. USF isn't design to perform comeback unlike Ostheer is. USF late game superior to OKW late game is a myth, the only reason people think so is because of skill gap between players on matchmaking. A same match with a more balanced factions would see the USF player wins the same game faster.

OKW being superior to USF early game is fine if USF is given all the tools to come back, and not one tool or another aka T1 suppression or T2 AT options, but both of them on each tier and being less commander depend as Ostheer also is.
And since it is not likely to happen because of USF/OS matchup, OKW early game has to be tone down.
There is a need of a logic behind the design, if you design a faction around gaps and strong decision making (T1 vs T2) as USF is today in exchange of early domination, you can't suddenly take it away and say "it's fine, they can still comeback"...

And don't get me wrong, nobody is even talking about having USF early game superior to OKW, but a more balanced situation, a 50|50 where the best player takes the lead of the game.

I don't know why you keep focusing on this, the problem isn't that OKW beat USF for the 5 first minutes, it is that USF is design to beat their opponent during that time or they lose. USF isn't design to perform comeback unlike Ostheer is. USF late game superior to OKW late game is a myth, the only reason people think so is because of skill gap between players on matchmaking. A same match with a more balanced factions would see the USF player wins the same game faster.

OKW being superior to USF early game is fine if USF is given all the tools to come back, and not one tool or another aka T1 suppression or T2 AT options, but both of them on each tier and being less commander depend as Ostheer also is.
And since it is not likely to happen because of USF/OS matchup, OKW early game has to be tone down.
There is a need of a logic behind the design, if you design a faction around gaps and strong decision making (T1 vs T2) as USF is today in exchange of early domination, you can't suddenly take it away and say "it's fine, they can still comeback"...

And don't get me wrong, nobody is even talking about having USF early game superior to OKW, but a more balanced situation, a 50|50 where the best player takes the lead of the game.

Stock OKW t4 is GARBAGE compared to USF lategame. I don't know where you get these fanatical dillusions that the HE sherman is somehow worse than a P4 that relies entirely on RNG to make its cost worth, and a KT that is so laughably bad its seen as liability to buy rather then an actual worthwhile investment. The Jackson can handle any piece of stock armor OKW can field with enough support and the scott is a solid piece of indirect.

Meanwhile OKWs lategame AI includes, the KT which has IS2 scatter on a chasis that is 50% slower. The P4 whose AI is out matched by the HE sherman in AoE of the main gun and T34 in MGs. The p4 has to even purchase an MG to get the same DPS as the T34s MGs all for the bonus of shooting to the sides and rear. And lastly there is Obers, which arrive far later than standard mainline infantry who can simply match their power just by double equipping machine guns, all while having 5 men.

Try OKW before you try to balance them.

The OKW Panzer IV has 232 armor, only 28 less than the Panther which makes it a solid generalist tank, it's not like the Sherman HE shells aren't also at the mercy of RNG. Much like how the Jackson that "can handle any piece of stock OKW armor with support" can't help vs the OKW Hordes, just like with the LT vs Captain, Jackson vs Sherman is once again picking one or the other vs OKW, due to the armored skirts of the OKW Panzer IV giving it an edge over the Sherman in a duel.

OKW nerfs or USF buffs, USF buffs might cause issues in the Wehrmacht vs US matchup, so OKW nerfs sounds like the better idea.

The OKW Panzer IV has 232 armor, only 28 less than the Panther which makes it a solid generalist tank, it's not like the Sherman HE shells aren't also at the mercy of RNG. Much like how the Jackson that "can handle any piece of stock OKW armor with support" can't help vs the OKW Hordes, just like with the LT vs Captain, Jackson vs Sherman is once again picking one or the other vs OKW, due to the armored skirts of the OKW Panzer IV giving it an edge over the Sherman in a duel.

OKW nerfs or USF buffs, USF buffs might cause issues in the Wehrmacht vs US matchup, so OKW nerfs sounds like the better idea.

234 armor. Shows how much on actual stats are behind these statements.

234 armor. Shows how much on actual stats are behind these statements.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, after all it means it has even more armor than I thought.

234 armor. Shows how much on actual stats are behind these statements.

Could have been pulling from memory and misremebered. 2 whole points off isn't a big deal, certainly not a reason to be a cunt about it

I don't know why you keep focusing on this, the problem isn't that OKW beat USF for the 5 first minutes, it is that USF is design to beat their opponent during that time or they lose. USF isn't design to perform comeback unlike Ostheer is. USF late game superior to OKW late game is a myth, the only reason people think so is because of skill gap between players on matchmaking. A same match with a more balanced factions would see the USF player wins the same game faster.

OKW being superior to USF early game is fine if USF is given all the tools to come back, and not one tool or another aka T1 suppression or T2 AT options, but both of them on each tier and being less commander depend as Ostheer also is.
And since it is not likely to happen because of USF/OS matchup, OKW early game has to be tone down.
There is a need of a logic behind the design, if you design a faction around gaps and strong decision making (T1 vs T2) as USF is today in exchange of early domination, you can't suddenly take it away and say "it's fine, they can still comeback"...

And don't get me wrong, nobody is even talking about having USF early game superior to OKW, but a more balanced situation, a 50|50 where the best player takes the lead of the game.

USF late game is vastly superior to the OKW late game in 1v1 games. Rifles have double the RA bonuses of Volks and vastly superior dps with double BARs, which also have a small moving acc penalty. Obers and P4s are the only counter to USF infantry dominance, but USF also happens to have the best tank destroyer in the game and the best heavy tank in the game with Heavy Cav.

USF lacking rocket artillery is really a problem vs PAK walls and mg42s, but my USF experiences with OKW have always been "he kills me with early game into LVs or I overrun him mid to late game"

Stock OKW t4 is GARBAGE compared to USF lategame. I don't know where you get these fanatical dillusions that the HE sherman is somehow worse than a P4 that relies entirely on RNG to make its cost worth, and a KT that is so laughably bad its seen as liability to buy rather then an actual worthwhile investment. The Jackson can handle any piece of stock armor OKW can field with enough support and the scott is a solid piece of indirect.

Meanwhile OKWs lategame AI includes, the KT which has IS2 scatter on a chasis that is 50% slower. The P4 whose AI is out matched by the HE sherman in AoE of the main gun and T34 in MGs. The p4 has to even purchase an MG to get the same DPS as the T34s MGs all for the bonus of shooting to the sides and rear. And lastly there is Obers, which arrive far later than standard mainline infantry who can simply match their power just by double equipping machine guns, all while having 5 men.

Try OKW before you try to balance them.

Did I really say OKW T4 is better than USF? Oh no, I just say USF superior late game is a myth and by your own description you are acknowledging it. Pz4 and Sherman, Jackson and Panther or Jpz4, one faction rely on a unique tool to counter armor while the other has a variety of choices and a complete army covering all aspects of the game by the moment the T3 is built.

You can't simply compare Riflemen late game in a vacuum with Obers when the first is lacking half of his support by design or to delay is own late game. When Obers hit the field, you have HMGs, Raketen, Luchs + Puma or HT + Leigs + map vision already giving you various advantages.

I repeat myself but nobody says OKW is OP or anything else, nop, but have too much advantages early game, nobody is asking for a direct nerf but an adjustement that would only bring more balance for those 5 first minutes.

Clever Sturmpioneer play can be the only thing that gives OKW a chance against early HMG spam in team games as the natural counters (ISGs or flanking Volks STG dps and flame nades) take a pretty long time to come on the field and avoiding HMG's isn't an option.

Nevermind the USF, if you take away the Sturmpioneers the OKW won't stand a chance against UKF and Soviet HMG builds on corridor team maps.

all this talk about USF and OKW and teamgames while everyone forgets once again the poor soviets with weakest trash units early on (cons losing to volks or if lucky going even) unless u delay and go for Penals and get then overwhelmed. And has the lowest starting resources. Pathetic and worst late game. Poor soviets.

Buff soviets when? Nerf okw when?

Clever Sturmpioneer play can be the only thing that gives OKW a chance against early HMG spam in team games as the natural counters (ISGs or flanking Volks STG dps and flame nades) take a pretty long time to come on the field and avoiding HMG's isn't an option.

Nevermind the USF, if you take away the Sturmpioneers the OKW won't stand a chance against UKF and Soviet HMG builds on corridor team maps.

Take soviets out of the equation, maxim spam isn't a thing anymore and it's absolute trash MG that doesn't suppress anything these days and GL pinning. U can literally crawl ur way to the maxim and throw a firenade.
Not to forget Maxim is equal price with mg-42 or close... go figure. Soviets again getting the short stick.

Could have been pulling from memory and misremebered. 2 whole points off isn't a big deal, certainly not a reason to be a cunt about it

I don't want to be hostile, but when the same 6-7 people who ONLY play USF just say whatever they like inorder to get USF to "braindead tactical nuke I win" status you can only be nice for so long.

Did I really say OKW T4 is better than USF? Oh no, I just say USF superior late game is a myth and by your own description you are acknowledging it. Pz4 and Sherman, Jackson and Panther or Jpz4, one faction rely on a unique tool to counter armor while the other has a variety of choices and a complete army covering all aspects of the game by the moment the T3 is built.

You can't simply compare Riflemen late game in a vacuum with Obers when the first is lacking half of his support by design or to delay is own late game. When Obers hit the field, you have HMGs, Raketen, Luchs + Puma or HT + Leigs + map vision already giving you various advantages.

I repeat myself but nobody says OKW is OP or anything else, nop, but have too much advantages early game, nobody is asking for a direct nerf but an adjustement that would only bring more balance for those 5 first minutes.

It's simple, we nerf the OKW.

This guy says nerf OKW, therefore if something is receiving a nerf it must be OP.

By saying "USF being superior lategame is a myth" you are saying that OKWs lategame is better. OKW t4 is the OKW lategame unless you want to count cheesey AF rak blobs and argueably the Stuka in teamgames. It doesn't matter if OKW has access to more diverse armor like the JP4, p4, KT, and panther if the jackson can shut all of them down. Futhermore, you MUST compare obers to BAR rifles in a vaccum, otherwise I could just say "support your rifles with 50s and you'll win every engagement". Why can't the MG34 have damage to win its own engagements like the 50cal? Why can't raks be a normal AT gun instead of cheesey as shit? I don't know apparently some people enjoy having cheese in the game because it's "diverse".

Could have been pulling from memory and misremebered. 2 whole points off isn't a big deal, certainly not a reason to be a cunt about it

I wouldn't expect any better of him, he has always thought that attacking the person behind the argument is the way to go, not realizing that even if they improved the USF lategame it doesn't change that the faction is meant to be played in an agressive way where you make the decision and your opponent responds. Which doesn't happen vs OKW and is the main issue way beyond how silly Sturmpioners can be and Volks punching above their weight in cost, as they get all they could ever need without a Commander, besides Flamers I suppose.

There is a reason everyone is surprised when someone picks USF during the streams, if it does even happen nowadays, and not surprised at all when they end up losing.

xDD

when USF dominated the early game and okw late game that was unfair for usf.
When OKW dominate early game and USF late game, that's unfair for usf.

lol i guess USF is suppose to dominate OKW at all stages. Not that i even agree with these dumb statements.when i watch 1v1's between OKW and USF, its usually always down to the players skill and micro whether they dominate early game.

That's because OKW kept many of the crutches, a wheel-chair to be precise, they used to survive the early game during their "rework", which is why they are so oppressive early game now, you aren't going to compare OKW's current lategame vs the old USF lategame.
The memories of 480 HP Jackson bouncing of the targets it was supposed to counter, dying in 3 shots losing all the veterancy it struggled to adquire, if at least the M10 was still a call-in to deal with fuel deficits was still in the game I wouldn't even complain about it. But that's gone too now.

I can only hope the Commander Rework gives USF, also The Brits, a bit of a buff.

I wouldn't expect any better of him, he has always thought that attacking the person behind the argument is the way to go, not realizing that even if they improved the USF lategame it doesn't change that the faction is meant to be played in an agressive way where you make the decision and your opponent responds. Which doesn't happen vs OKW and is the main issue way beyond how silly Sturmpioners can be and Volks punching above their weight in cost, as they get all they could ever need without a Commander, besides Flamers I suppose.

There is a reason everyone is surprised when someone picks USF during the streams, if it does even happen nowadays, and not surprised at all when they end up losing.

I target you and about 5-6 others because you play 1 faction in a single gamemode and then complain in every thread involving USF saying they're absolute garbage, should never be played, give tactical nuke to USF, give axis sticks.

If you wanna talk shit you can take it to the crossroads and 1v1 me and i'll give you OPW. Should be easy to win in 5 minutes as that's how OKW is nowadays.