About USF early game, how about finally buffing RE a bit?
8 Aug 2018, 19:16 PM
#61
Posts: 5279
A buffed volley fire wouldn't be too bad I don't think. It would open up options. Assuming it's balanced of course it would only be Much use against something like sturms or pgrens and each use would delay BARs slightly. It's not like it would be all good with no drawbacks here
#stalinwept
8 Aug 2018, 20:45 PM
#62
Posts: 239
Giving smoke back to Rifles would help USF early game out a lot, don't know why it was removed in the first place. REs are honestly fine for their price.
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8 Aug 2018, 23:25 PM
#63
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Giving smoke back to Rifles would help USF early game out a lot, don't know why it was removed in the first place. REs are honestly fine for their price.
Because it allowed USF to constantly smoke Ost MG42s, which was problematic because Grenadiers aren´t designed to handle US infantry on their own.
The current way of giving RE and officers smoke is pretty good. That´s not really the problem USF has in my opinion. It´s their slow start and bad composition in mid-game that pisses me off the most.
OKW is way stronger in the first minutes because of Kübel+SP combo. Kübel and Volks are good at longer ranges while Sturms can rush important buildings or flank/CQC. It´s the perfect composition of units.
Then in the "LV phase" OKW has Raks+MG+Volks+LV+Sturms while USF always misses either MG or AT-gun.
9 Aug 2018, 00:37 AM
#64
Posts: 911
When was last time you've seen one used as anything else then sandbag and the latter can be built by other engineers or mainline infantry already?
Exactly how does other infantry having sandbags (which are worse) and them being used for green cover imply zero utility? Next
Apparently no other unit in USF arsenal can do that huh?
Not for a cost that is as low as RE. Next
A thing that hardly counts as its neither unique nor unexpected.
Uniqueness is not a requirement for utility. Next
And I'm 100% positive sure that someone who does not even own the factions knows a whole lot about the state of its units to have guts to even write that sentence. Or is it just sheer ignorance on your part?
At least I know what utility means. Oh and despite being a huge OKW fanboi, by definition I do own USF.
If you have ever played USF, you'd know that RETs are used for repair extremely rarely if ever.
Because all their tanks can self repair. This does not negate RE utility. Next
literally all they can do.
literally, do you know what that word means?
If you had, you wouldn't be even trying to question "usefulness" of it.
Useful? We are talking about utility for one, for two as you said "They cap, carry zooks and sweep," is that not a use?
All of that and more can be done more effectively and better by other engineers with the exception of soviet CEs which are even more worthless, but much more mandatory.
Soviet CEs can build green cover, carry bazookas and build machine gun pits, news to me.
Imagine my playercard is here
9 Aug 2018, 07:11 AM
#65
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
All of that and more can be done more effectively and better by other engineers with the exception of soviet CEs which are even more worthless, but much more mandatory.
Soviet CEs can build green cover, carry bazookas and build machine gun pits, news to me.
Your attention span doesn't even last one longer sentence apparently.
I'm discussing a kitten here.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Aug 2018, 07:38 AM
#66
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
A buffed volley fire wouldn't be too bad I don't think. It would open up options. Assuming it's balanced of course it would only be Much use against something like sturms or pgrens and each use would delay BARs slightly. It's not like it would be all good with no drawbacks here
It would be really bad, allowing the USF player with a button to win any engagement like flamnade was before being remove from start.
It's my personal experience but at my level sandbags make a lot of difference, fighting someone who build them anywhere and someone who don't is like day and night. Removing sandbags from volks would help a lot to balance the early game wihtout having to touch RE or Rifles.
9 Aug 2018, 07:45 AM
#67
Posts: 911
Your attention span doesn't even last one longer sentence apparently.
I'm discussing a kitten here.
Since you didn't bother with the rest of my points perhaps it is you with the poor attention span.
Oh and I stopped at combat engies as I realized that in order for you to not be pedantic I would need to make a table with how RE have more uses than all other engineer units (save sappers perhaps), and then you would then not read it anyways. Tell me do pioneers carry bazookas and build green cover better than rear echelons? Answer me that, I dare you.
And it doesn't even fucking matter what other units utility is. Another engi unit having a bajillion ultility doesn't negate RE also haveing utility as well. What silly logic do you run on?
Imagine my playercard is here
9 Aug 2018, 08:14 AM
#68
Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2
Since you didn't bother with the rest of my points perhaps it is you with the poor attention span.
Oh and I stopped at combat engies as I realized that in order for you to not be pedantic I would need to make a table with how RE have more uses than all other engineer units (save sappers perhaps), and then you would then not read it anyways. Tell me do pioneers carry bazookas and build green cover better than rear echelons? Answer me that, I dare you.
And it doesn't even fucking matter what other units utility is. Another engi unit having a bajillion ultility doesn't negate RE also haveing utility as well. What silly logic do you run on?
In the few rare instances in my life time I will have to agree with him.
Riflemen field defenses make the Rifles half RE because they can build everything the REs can save for caches and tank traps.
Of course then they wouldn't have mine sweepers but technically speaking, USF would not suffer as much without REs as other Armies.
I have always viewed them as some Osttruppen unit that can repair and build a bit more stuff as well as have minesweepers, and of course pick up weapons from the weapon racks.
9 Aug 2018, 08:32 AM
#69
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Removing sandbags from volks would help a lot to balance the early game wihtout having to touch RE or Rifles.
I think this would in turn ruin OKW's balance against Soviets and UKF since Volks definitely need green cover to stand a chance against Tommies and Penals. Better look for a solution in USF itself.
9 Aug 2018, 09:13 AM
#70
Posts: 3260
What if we shifted most of the USF grenade unlock's cost into manpower? It's currently 150 MP 25 FU if memory serves. What if we made it 250 MP 5 FU?
USF's pigeonholed into the three Rifle build early on because the alternative is usually floating manpower until they've got the fuel to unlock Lieutenant or Captain.
Currently the grenade unlock decision is 'do I need this more than I need faster teching?' which is almost always no.
If the cost was manpower-based it'd be a question of 'do I need grenades or another rifle squad/the USF mortar?' That's a much more situational decision.
USF's pigeonholed into the three Rifle build early on because the alternative is usually floating manpower until they've got the fuel to unlock Lieutenant or Captain.
Currently the grenade unlock decision is 'do I need this more than I need faster teching?' which is almost always no.
If the cost was manpower-based it'd be a question of 'do I need grenades or another rifle squad/the USF mortar?' That's a much more situational decision.
9 Aug 2018, 09:58 AM
#71
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I think this would in turn ruin OKW's balance against Soviets and UKF since Volks definitely need green cover to stand a chance against Tommies and Penals. Better look for a solution in USF itself.
Point is they shouldn't really stand a chance vs them on a 1 squad vs 1 squad fight but yeah that could make the Penal too strong vs them.
The other way around is if we buff USF early game, that could make things going wrong on USF/OST matchup.
There are other solutions, like increasing Volks build/reinforce time at vet0 or before first truck built.
Reducing OKW starting Manpower is also another way to be explored.
In my opinion, Volks aren't the main issue here but the squad field saturation you can reach extremly fast with OKW vs USF. 4 volks should have downside the same way 4 rifles has if you decide to go Lieutnant first.
9 Aug 2018, 10:22 AM
#72
Posts: 3260
I'd hesitate to screw with OKW's core to fix USF. SOV, OST and OKW work at the moment. There are a few things in need of some general love like heavy tanks but the core of those factions is decently balanced internally and against each other.
I think we need to clearly establish what specifically USF struggles too much against, then work out what change USF needs to alleviate it.
I think we need to clearly establish what specifically USF struggles too much against, then work out what change USF needs to alleviate it.
9 Aug 2018, 10:37 AM
#73
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
I think it is easier to modify OST, OKW and Soviet than USF and UKF. USF and UKF are the last two remaining factions missing essential army function as per design. Touching RE or Riflemen has more potential to create new monsters than volks or gren.
If volley fire is so bad, it is because it has too much potential with BARs upgrades. If RE are so damn expensive it is because it also has too much potential with Bars and 5men squad. Any buff to RE will make them too strong mid to late game or you need to completely redesign them and same goes for riflemen.
Then we could also increase USF starting manpower so the third RM hit the field sooner but what consequences it would have on OST/USF matchup.
If volley fire is so bad, it is because it has too much potential with BARs upgrades. If RE are so damn expensive it is because it also has too much potential with Bars and 5men squad. Any buff to RE will make them too strong mid to late game or you need to completely redesign them and same goes for riflemen.
Then we could also increase USF starting manpower so the third RM hit the field sooner but what consequences it would have on OST/USF matchup.
9 Aug 2018, 11:14 AM
#74
Posts: 353
about MK2 grenade
problem is not effective form Garrison Cover
easy to avoid By good mirco skill player for Combat squad
and need 2-3 Grenade for clear out for HMG Team squad
It hard to investment in early game unlike Molotov or Flame nade
problem is not effective form Garrison Cover
easy to avoid By good mirco skill player for Combat squad
and need 2-3 Grenade for clear out for HMG Team squad
It hard to investment in early game unlike Molotov or Flame nade
9 Aug 2018, 11:19 AM
#75
Posts: 3260
I agree on not modifying the units. I think the one-on-one balance of the infantry squads is in a decent spot at the moment.
What if we did what DBP did to the OST T3-T4 'fork' to USF?
Same teching cost overall on a standard T1 -> T3. Captain's no longer more expensive than Lieutenant: without the old Stuart or free bazooka it hasn't really got a reason to be. Double teching costs more manpower and less fuel.
The AAHT and Stuart lock is to offset huge rush time boost they'd otherwise get. Assuming you tech racks (the cheaper option) the AAHT is 5 FU faster and the Stuart is 15 FU faster.
What if we did what DBP did to the OST T3-T4 'fork' to USF?
- Lieutenant: 200 MP 50 FU -> 240 MP 30 FU
Captain: 200 MP 60 FU -> 240 MP 30 FU
Major: 240 MP 120 FU -> 200 MP 140 FU
- The AAHT and Stuart now also require either the Weapon Racks or Grenades unlock.
Same teching cost overall on a standard T1 -> T3. Captain's no longer more expensive than Lieutenant: without the old Stuart or free bazooka it hasn't really got a reason to be. Double teching costs more manpower and less fuel.
The AAHT and Stuart lock is to offset huge rush time boost they'd otherwise get. Assuming you tech racks (the cheaper option) the AAHT is 5 FU faster and the Stuart is 15 FU faster.
9 Aug 2018, 13:54 PM
#76
Posts: 5279
It would be really bad, allowing the USF player with a button to win any engagement like flamnade was before being remove from start.
But it would require mixing in RE instead of just building rifles for days. Against OKW it would hinder a Sturm rush for sure but if RE retained a debuff while it was happening the Kuble would be prime as fire support. Against OST I don't see much issue either because they are generally not hard aggressors especially against USF. They need MG support and cover to succeed.
Again if it's not over the top like it was at launch it wouldn't be so bad. There needs to be counterplay which the debuff offers, but atm the debuff outweighs the actual effect. You are better off just focus firing 100% of the time
#stalinwept
9 Aug 2018, 14:20 PM
#77
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
But it would require mixing in RE instead of just building rifles for days. Against OKW it would hinder a Sturm rush for sure but if RE retained a debuff while it was happening the Kuble would be prime as fire support. Against OST I don't see much issue either because they are generally not hard aggressors especially against USF. They need MG support and cover to succeed.
Again if it's not over the top like it was at launch it wouldn't be so bad. There needs to be counterplay which the debuff offers, but atm the debuff outweighs the actual effect. You are better off just focus firing 100% of the time
Why would you need more than one RE for that? Key is to win two first engagements and then snowball, one RE squad is enough for that. The issue is, or the ability is effective and using it in proper condition wins you the engagement, or it is not and it is useless.
Abilities and grenade that have such impact on each engagement that they should come a bit later, around 3-4 minutes, not before. The only exception is for the anti-garrison.
9 Aug 2018, 17:15 PM
#78
Posts: 5279
Why would you need more than one RE for that? Key is to win two first engagements and then snowball, one RE squad is enough for that. The issue is, or the ability is effective and using it in proper condition wins you the engagement, or it is not and it is useless.
Abilities and grenade that have such impact on each engagement that they should come a bit later, around 3-4 minutes, not before. The only exception is for the anti-garrison.
Make it their vet 1 then and make it useful.
But again, if they are using it in the first few engagements they are really just tying up a squad hoping to let the others work. Suppression reduces incoming damage doesn't it? So it's slowing movement but not harming them out side that. The RE would still be vulnerable and immobile right? So if say it's a match up between sturms and volks against RE and rifles you would volley the sturms charging so your rifles could womo the volks. The cheap RE are tying up an expensive squad but if the volks turn on the RE instead of the rifles they could force them off and then it's battered volks and sturms against just rifles. Theory crafting is easy of course but that's all we have. That and comparing the old insta pin to the current never pin or even suppress...
Volley fire is in the same boat as demos- noob traps designed to waste resources as they are so ineffecient.
#stalinwept
9 Aug 2018, 18:33 PM
#79
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
Rear Echelons costing 25 manpower to reinforce, 3 less than riflemen which have better RA and the same as Volksgrenadiers, really makes them kinda pointless besides the one squad you will use as Bazooka mules with a Sweeper. Currently PROKW can just walk into your cutoff or high resources and there is nothing you can do about it, because their starting unit is just better and their mainline infantry is cheaper, faster to build, gets green cover free and also get their upgrade before yours, not to mention that OKW specialized Light Vehicles are proving to be better investment than the USF ones. Something has to change in that matchup, while Wehr can be a bit of a headache should they be good at micro, that comes to the player rather than just brute forcing your cut-off or high resources and you having no choice but to bleed trying to defend it or concede that position.
9 Aug 2018, 19:21 PM
#80
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
Make it their vet 1 then and make it useful.
But again, if they are using it in the first few engagements they are really just tying up a squad hoping to let the others work. Suppression reduces incoming damage doesn't it? So it's slowing movement but not harming them out side that. The RE would still be vulnerable and immobile right? So if say it's a match up between sturms and volks against RE and rifles you would volley the sturms charging so your rifles could womo the volks. The cheap RE are tying up an expensive squad but if the volks turn on the RE instead of the rifles they could force them off and then it's battered volks and sturms against just rifles. Theory crafting is easy of course but that's all we have. That and comparing the old insta pin to the current never pin or even suppress...
Volley fire is in the same boat as demos- noob traps designed to waste resources as they are so ineffecient.
What's the point to make it vet1 if the USF issue is between minute 0 and 5.
Once Sturm are suppressed RE can simply focus voks with riflemen, the moment sturm are back to their potential the volks squad will have to retreat. Again, if you make an ability, or it is usefull an by definition helps you to win engagements or it is not.
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